GenderLife Forum: The Information Exchange

I'll probably offend everybody, but I calls em how I sees em.

First, is it desirable that a child's gender identity match the original soma? I think it is, all other things being equal. Transition by changing body to match brain is hard, it's costly, it's not risk-free, it's imperfect and it involves loss of function (ie fertility). Before a personality is fully grown, it would be reasonable to change the brain to match the body if possible.

So if there was some kind of pill or magic potion that could affect such a change, and by that I mean a change to the child's brain, and without any side-effects or sequelae, it would be at least arguable that it would be a good thing. I personally would require consent from both patients and parents, but if such a thing existed, I'd say it was ethical to provide it, and not ethical to refuse.

The trouble is..... this is not without side-effects. Moreover, it doesn't work very well at its primary aim.

It's all about neurology. I've been convinced by the evidence that "Gender Dysphoria" is caused by relatively primitive parts of the brain being atypical. It's simplistic to say a cross-gendered brain, or an Intersexed brain, but close enough. Now brains, especially in young children, are somewhat plastic. The plasticity varies with individuals, and the more primitive the area we're talking about, the less plastic it is.

In order to affect such changes to neural structures, we need the equivalent of a sledgehammer. Torture, prolonged and intense. Even then, it won't usually work, but it will sometimes. There will be sequelae, suicidal ideation, depression, psychosis even in many of those who are "cured", so the negative consequences are pretty severe, regardless of outcome. The usual result will be only a partial "cure", and often only temporary, as the underlying cause for the atypical neurology in the first place still remains.

In my estimation, the negative consequences outweigh any possible benefits by an order of magnitude. The effects on the mental health of the parents, who have to inflict the bulk of the torture, cannot be disregarded either.

Changing the body to match the brain has disadvantages.

Attempting to change the brain to match the body when it still may have enough plasticity in some cases has far more disadvantages.

Or if you want a sound byte from the parent in me, rather than the scientist, "Torturing children is wrong".

Zoe

I think you’re right on the money. If it were easier to change the brain to match the body, that approach makes more sense. It would be more socially acceptable, would require less endurance, and would keep the ability to reproduce intact.
I could certainly be wrong here, but I think a survey of the T community offering two choices:
1) Would you rather have started your transition before puberty, or
2) Would you have preferred to take a “magic pill” (no side effects) as a young child that would allow you feel comfortable in the body you were born into
the results would be lopsided in favor of early transition, even though men suffer less discrimination, have greater physical strength (in general), earn more money, and are more accepted into positions of power than women. All my life I’ve wanted to be female. I wouldn’t wish these feelings on anyone. I don’t think I could make myself take the “magic pill” as an adult. I do know that it would save a lot of pain on my part and on the part of the people that love me if I just wanted to be a man. As a parent, you want your children to live happy, extraordinary lives. I find it hard to believe that there is a parent out there, myself included, who wouldn’t pick the “magic pill” option for their children.
I have to many memories of the pain of living in the wrong body to want the magic pill now, but if such a thing existed when I was a child, I would hope my parents would have given it to me.

Well that would explain a lot! (I am just "primitive" LOL!)

I wonder, though, is it ethical to to force someone to change who they are if they have no say in it. How early would you do it. In the womb? Would you change other things, such as intelligence, athletic ability, etc. Or perhaps selectively choose fetuses who wouldn't have GID, or be gay, or whatever.

I think as one tries to push 'reparative' therapy earlier and earlier, it starts to sound like eugenics. Blanchard, Bailey, etc. seem to be associated with eugenics movements, so it's no surprise

For the most part, it is unethical. There are some exceptions, and the edges of the conditions are a little fuzzy. I don't think most people would find an intervention for a drug addict unethical. Castrating a child molester is in a grayer area. As parents, you do things to your children they are opposed to all the time, like vaccinations, dental visits, cutting their fingernails, and when I was a child, making me eat liver. I would not do anything extraordinary chemically, surgically, or genetically to alter my children unless their health or well being was in jeopardy. My proposition was purely hypothetical, that’s why I used the term “magic pill” with the quotation marks included.

If conversion therapy on conscious beings were effective and ethical (which anyone reading the article should be able to see it's not... ethical, that is), I wouldn't have a big problem with doing it on someone very, very young. But certainly once the child is linguistic, I think it's clear that there's a person there, and gender identity is so core to the experience of being human, any hypothetical successful conversion therapy would essentially be a form of murder, in which the old person is destroyed and a new person created in his/her body.

So, yeah, if somehow we can make sure that fetuses grow into children with matching gender identities and bodies, then fuck yes, I say do it. However, I think the required level of neurophysiology to pull off a trick like that is, at the very least, not in our foreseeable future. In the meantime, I propose we... stop torturing children?

I can think of several reasons to force anyone to change who they are...'

1) One party government... example Democratic Republican party or slave camps...

2) One organzied religious domination - example Southern Baptist or slave camps...

3) Strong family values for positive population growth... Ban gay and transgendered to slave camps...

4) Two classes, serfs and upperclass...

5) Only rights is loyality to government, god, their work, their family...

Yukkie world it would be.

There are plenty of people working on 'magic pills' to prevent various illnesses in the womb. Wouldn't be surprised if people were working on magic pills to prevent 'gayness' or 'transness,' otherwise known as pills and tests to regulate hormone levels in the womb. Heck, I suspect DES took part in making me who I am in the first place.
Probably be able to get 'magic pills' to make your kids taller, better looking, smarter, etc.

Unfortunately, those magic pills will likely have side effects such as neurological disorders, reducing resistance to disease, etc.

The question is, will it be healthy to the human race to get rid of transness, gayness, etc. I would argue that no, it would not be healthy. With like 10% of the population being gay, and probably an equally large population having some other form of gender variance (crossdressing, etc), natural selection didn't take us out of the equation, so why should we.

Well, if I got to choose what kind of child I would bring into the world, I would choose to have a straight, cis, white male. That kind of child would have an easier life, and I want my child to have a relatively easy life.

Of course, it is unnerving to think of a world where everyone did something similar... if we could globally control what kind of people are born, I would much prefer to get rid of all the assholes who make life hard for non (straight, cis, white males).

You and I are mostly on the same page.
When I was a child, I was so small that doctors were proposing a new technique to get me to grow. Basically, it was treatment with human growth hormone harvested from cadavers. My parents chose not to pursue this, since the doctors couldn’t accurately predict how much extra height it would produce, and because they were unsure of the side effects. This was before the development of synthetic human growth hormone, and there have been more than 25 documented cases of Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease, which is basically the human version of mad cow disease, in children treated with cadaver-GH.
It is now common for children with the newly defined, by Eli Lily, syndrome of “idiopathic short stature” to be treated with synthetic HGH. ISS is defined as being 2 standard deviations below normal height. (I’m about 4 standard deviations below for men and a little over 2 s.d. for women). “Heightism” exists and is well documented. As a parent, I would hate for my child to experience prejudice or suffering because of something beyond their control, like, height, race, sexual orientation, gender, or a disability. Ideally, society would accept our differences and the world would be a better place. That’s not happening in my lifetime, so I’ll do what I can within reason to protect my kids. I have three children, and their mother is a little above average in height (5’8”). Our kids are all on the short side, the shortest is in the bottom 20% for height for his age. If they were diagnosed with ISS, I am not sure what I would do, although I believe I would choose not to treat them with HGH. If I knew they would grow to be as short as I am, relative to their peers, I probably would be in favor of treatment.
Why the long ramble about height? I agree that society is a better place with all sorts of differences in it. I know that my stature has definitely shaped my personality, and not in the typical “Napoleon Complex” way. People who know me forget about it and never notice, until something odd happens, like my feet dangling when I’m sitting in a chair, etc. I have used it to my advantage in business and socially. It makes me stand out in a crowd, so many more people remember who I am, a huge advantage in a networking situation. Also, I am thrilled that I’m short, because it makes passing much easier. Finally, because I am so comfortable with my height, I think in some small manner I reduce the amount of heightism in the world. There have been some wonderful consequences of being short, although I wouldn’t want my kids to go through it.
Stephen Hawking was a class clown destined for mediocrity until he contracted amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. Now he is generally regarded as the most influential scientist of our time. I wouldn’t wish ALS on anyone, but in this case it was a blessing for humanity, and I wouldn’t want to speak for Dr. Hawking, so here are his words :
My hypothetical “magic pill” had no side effects. If I found out one of my kids had ALS, and there was a treatment for it, we would certainly do it, even if the side effects were harsh. People subject themselves to chemotherapy and radiation to fight cancer. People are treated with anti-psychotics that have multiple side effects, like Tardive dyskinesia. If I knew there was way, with no side effects and without being cruel, of having a child of mine be able to avoid the pain of growing up transsexual, or even homosexual, I would absolutely go for it. I am obviously not prejudiced against either. But being TS, or, to a lesser degree, being gay, makes life more difficult. There is no way to change people who are TS or homosexual now, and I doubt there ever will be. If I found out one of my kids was TS, I wouldn’t try to change them; I wouldn’t love them any less or any more. I would do what I can to support them. The only thing I might change is instead of just teaching them that prejudice is wrong, I would also try to teach them how to deal with it.