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#28544 - 10/11/03 09:16 PM A Letter I Sent To My Church
Aviya Offline
Member

Registered: 04/18/03
Loc: washington state
You speak of placing belief in that which you do not see, yet you cast aspersions on that which you do not understand. If you were an orthopedic surgeon and came across a man with multiple fractures would you tell him that his issue is with God? That you are unable to assist him as he is in “sin”. How then can you say to the person who suffers from a condition that is unable to be seen with the eye that what he suffers is due to sin? Your scales are without doubt corrupt. They have been forged from the fire of convenience an salaciousness. You speak of the grand biological diversity that is upon the earth, yet you fail to see the grand diversity that is within a single population of Homo sapiens. You twist and distort the Word of God to support your own twisted ideology. You allow culture to creep into the interpretation of the sacred Word. You brood of vipers!
Your counsel is corrupt. You instill grief and shame among those that are lost and alone. Those that need to see that light of Jesus are handed a chunk of coal and instructed to make matches. Worse yet, you teach others to do as you do. You teach the children to become purveyors of hate and ignorance. You know nothing of the love of Jesus. His teachings are in vain upon your ears. The gay man with aids lies alone on a death bed while you sing songs. The homeless children wander aimlessly amongst the houses of “God” while you enjoy potlucks and “fellowship”. May it never be that a homeless person interrupts your Sunday morning worship service, lest it inconvenience you.
Your “Christian love” is a sham. It is a blight upon this earth. There is no hope in your words.
You will not understand a word of what was just said. You are a Christian.
_________________________
plants are eukaryotes to

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#28545 - 10/11/03 10:31 PM Post deleted by CalperniaAddams
Anonymous
Unregistered


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#28546 - 10/11/03 10:38 PM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church
Aviya Offline
Member

Registered: 04/18/03
Loc: washington state
I was instructed that I would not be welcome any longer as I had chosen to transition. What did I hope to gain? Nothing other than letting my feelings be known. Granted I was very hurt and angry, not the best combination for putting pen to paper. In retrospect, I feel it was an imprudent decision to send that letter; as fiery rhetoric begets fiery rhetoric. Alas, we all live and learn.
_________________________
plants are eukaryotes to

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#28547 - 10/11/03 11:55 PM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church
Kymberley Offline


Registered: 02/08/03
Aviya -

I'm sorry to hear about your problem with your Church. I, too, was asked to leave after a few months at my Church and they knew of my transiton prior to me going there. I felt that if they were to treat me that way, they could fair better without my money. Interestingly enough, a few weeks after I was forced to leave, the pastor also left and the Church closed. Oh well.

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#28548 - 10/12/03 12:01 AM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church
Marcella Offline
Anarcho-Nihilist Cow

Registered: 03/31/03
Loc: Barn
I've been invited to many different churches, from Baptist back when I was 14 and my friend who was a Baptist took me there, to a sinagogue this summer, and I find myself experimenting with both Buddhism and Wicca.

I've always been fascinated by religion and people who believe in it, but I see it as something so external to my own experience I simply cannot tell if it's a good or bad thing overall.

BUT reading from some of the experiences people transitioning have in churches, I suspect a lot of Christians still have a long way to go before they achieve "humanity".

I'm sorry about what happened to you both Aviya and Kymberley. Their loss.
_________________________
This a spiritual thing and I am the laughing Buddha sitting on top of the world. Donnalee.

Defeat The Cow!!! http://my.funtrivia.com/tournament/Callies-quiz-75578.html

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#28549 - 10/12/03 12:21 AM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church
Kymberley Offline


Registered: 02/08/03
Quote:

BUT reading from some of the experiences people transitioning have in churches, I suspect a lot of Christians still have a long way to go before they achieve "humanity".




Indeed, you are right. They do pick and choose verses to suit their own needs and beliefs at the same time they profess to believe in the Bible in it's entirely. This is the part that gets me. Oh well, I know in my heart what I believe and what I feel.

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#28550 - 10/12/03 02:08 AM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church
Joan Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/20/03
I got fed up with churches before I went into transition. It was due to some of the rudeness that I experienced when I was going to college. At the church youth group meetings:

1. I was ignored, when it came to forming discussion groups.

2. If I was talking to someone, one of the busy bodies would come over and try to break up the discussion.

3. I was exposed to this, 'our church is the only way to gain salvation' propaganda. This was in contradiction to my feelings that the important thing was being a good person.

4. I had exposure to the 'Hellfire and Brimstone' preaching at one church. This is also the sort of thing to which I object.

5 I had a run-in with a Navy chaplain, that was destructive. He did a really good job of destroying any possibility of trust. I was asexual. It did seem that he was pressuring me to engage in activity that might be classified as sexual harassment or even assault.


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#28551 - 10/31/03 03:25 PM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church
lilnorge Offline


Registered: 08/09/03
Loc: home
Quote:

You are a Christian





Yes, I am a Christian and here's what the Church should believe in below...


Quote:

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Matthew 22:37-39


Holy Bible -- King James Version






"God is Faithful, Even to Transsexuals"

I love all my Sister's

Kristian Ann Jorgensen
KristiAnnJ1@juno.com

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#28552 - 10/31/03 07:29 PM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church
Anonymous
Unregistered

There are lots of tolerant temples/churches/synagogues/mosques out there. Don't bother with the pharisees and the hypocrites.

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#289779 - 08/15/08 08:58 AM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church [Re: Aviya]
Deena Offline
Supreme Oracle

Registered: 05/11/06
Originally Posted By: Aviya
You speak of placing belief in that which you do not see, yet you cast aspersions on that which you do not understand. If you were an orthopedic surgeon and came across a man with multiple fractures would you tell him that his issue is with God? That you are unable to assist him as he is in “sin”. How then can you say to the person who suffers from a condition that is unable to be seen with the eye that what he suffers is due to sin? Your scales are without doubt corrupt. They have been forged from the fire of convenience an salaciousness. You speak of the grand biological diversity that is upon the earth, yet you fail to see the grand diversity that is within a single population of Homo sapiens. You twist and distort the Word of God to support your own twisted ideology. You allow culture to creep into the interpretation of the sacred Word. You brood of vipers!
Your counsel is corrupt. You instill grief and shame among those that are lost and alone. Those that need to see that light of Jesus are handed a chunk of coal and instructed to make matches. Worse yet, you teach others to do as you do. You teach the children to become purveyors of hate and ignorance. You know nothing of the love of Jesus. His teachings are in vain upon your ears. The gay man with aids lies alone on a death bed while you sing songs. The homeless children wander aimlessly amongst the houses of “God” while you enjoy potlucks and “fellowship”. May it never be that a homeless person interrupts your Sunday morning worship service, lest it inconvenience you.
Your “Christian love” is a sham. It is a blight upon this earth. There is no hope in your words.
You will not understand a word of what was just said. You are a Christian.

This reads like what Jesus said in the 7 woes. I would add one word to your statement. "You will not understand a word of what was just said. You are a Christian." should read----->
"You will not understand a word of what was just said. You are not a Christian.
_________________________
.

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#289787 - 08/15/08 09:42 AM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church [Re: Deena]
Hope_WA Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/14/07
Loc: Eastern Washington state, U.S....
I light of recent development within my church, I have thought about opening a dialogue with our pastor about transsexuality and homosexuality. Any suggestion about how to broach the subject in written form?
_________________________
"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." Henry David Thoreau

His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
Jesus answered, "Neither he nor his parents sinned; it is so that the works of God might be made visible through him. "
John 9:2-3

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#289798 - 08/15/08 10:19 AM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church [Re: Hope_WA]
Deena Offline
Supreme Oracle

Registered: 05/11/06
Originally Posted By: Hope_WA
I light of recent development within my church, I have thought about opening a dialogue with our pastor about transsexuality and homosexuality. Any suggestion about how to broach the subject in written form?

Hmmm. You mean you are going to speak with her/him in person or exchange letters? You could begin by sending a copy of the Bible. wink
_________________________
.

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#289801 - 08/15/08 10:23 AM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church [Re: Deena]
Deena Offline
Supreme Oracle

Registered: 05/11/06
Then ask her/him which words she/he believes in as perfectly translated from ancient Hebrew and Greek and exactly expressing the word of God. Then which words she/he believes need to be understood sort of within the context of the times and the speaker and the intended audience. Then ask her/him specifically which words of Jesus she/he accepts and which she/he rejects. That ought to at least start things off. wink
_________________________
.

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#289809 - 08/15/08 11:14 AM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church [Re: Deena]
Pink Cat Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/07
Loc: Oregon,
Hope, it is my suggestion that who should not waste your time, trying to discuss that subject with preachers.

If you believe in God, you don't need a church.

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#289813 - 08/15/08 11:36 AM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church [Re: Pink Cat]
Hope_WA Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/14/07
Loc: Eastern Washington state, U.S....
Originally Posted By: Pink Cat
If you believe in God, you don't need a church.

Maybe I don't need them, maybe they need me.
_________________________
"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." Henry David Thoreau

His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
Jesus answered, "Neither he nor his parents sinned; it is so that the works of God might be made visible through him. "
John 9:2-3

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#289818 - 08/15/08 12:04 PM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church [Re: Hope_WA]
Joan Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/20/03
Quote:

Maybe I don't need them, maybe they need me.


That is a really good observation. People, who are too much into dogmatic thinking, need something to 'rattle their cages', so they have a chance to start 'thinking out side of the box', and grow as people.

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#289823 - 08/15/08 12:18 PM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church [Re: Joan]
Deena Offline
Supreme Oracle

Registered: 05/11/06
Originally Posted By: Joan
Quote:

Maybe I don't need them, maybe they need me.


That is a really good observation. People, who are too much into dogmatic thinking, need something to 'rattle their cages', so they have a chance to start 'thinking out side of the box', and grow as people.

Actually I own some Pfizer Pharmaceuticals stock and I love watching people reach for the Rolaids. wink
_________________________
.

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#289825 - 08/15/08 12:24 PM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church [Re: Deena]
Hope_WA Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/14/07
Loc: Eastern Washington state, U.S....
Originally Posted By: Deena
Actually I own some Pfizer Pharmaceuticals stock and I love watching people reach for the Rolaids. wink


Why? Pfizer sold their consumer products division, which included Rolaids, to Johnson & Johnson in 2006.
_________________________
"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." Henry David Thoreau

His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
Jesus answered, "Neither he nor his parents sinned; it is so that the works of God might be made visible through him. "
John 9:2-3

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#289828 - 08/15/08 12:29 PM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church [Re: Hope_WA]
Deena Offline
Supreme Oracle

Registered: 05/11/06
Originally Posted By: Hope_WA
Originally Posted By: Deena
Actually I own some Pfizer Pharmaceuticals stock and I love watching people reach for the Rolaids. wink


Why? Pfizer sold their consumer products division, which included Rolaids, to Johnson & Johnson in 2006.

Oh, that's OK then cause Mom owns some Johnson and Johnson so I will eventually benefit. smile
_________________________
.

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#289829 - 08/15/08 12:33 PM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church [Re: Joan]
Deena Offline
Supreme Oracle

Registered: 05/11/06
Originally Posted By: Joan
I got fed up with churches before I went into transition. It was due to some of the rudeness that I experienced when I was going to college. At the church youth group meetings:

1. I was ignored, when it came to forming discussion groups.

2. If I was talking to someone, one of the busy bodies would come over and try to break up the discussion.

3. I was exposed to this, 'our church is the only way to gain salvation' propaganda. This was in contradiction to my feelings that the important thing was being a good person.

4. I had exposure to the 'Hellfire and Brimstone' preaching at one church. This is also the sort of thing to which I object.

5 I had a run-in with a Navy chaplain, that was destructive. He did a really good job of destroying any possibility of trust. I was asexual. It did seem that he was pressuring me to engage in activity that might be classified as sexual harassment or even assault.


Yeah. I had some of those experiences too. shrug frustrated
_________________________
.

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#289830 - 08/15/08 12:38 PM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church [Re: Deena]
Hope_WA Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/14/07
Loc: Eastern Washington state, U.S....
I did too. The church I attend now seemed pretty good. Either I will change the opinions of enough people in my current church, or I will find a new church that suits me better, or I'll pray and read and commune with God without atttending a church, or more than one of the above.
_________________________
"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." Henry David Thoreau

His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
Jesus answered, "Neither he nor his parents sinned; it is so that the works of God might be made visible through him. "
John 9:2-3

Top
#289859 - 08/15/08 03:19 PM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church [Re: Hope_WA]
Marcella Offline
Anarcho-Nihilist Cow

Registered: 03/31/03
Loc: Barn
Originally Posted By: Hope_WA
Originally Posted By: Pink Cat
If you believe in God, you don't need a church.

Maybe I don't need them, maybe they need me.

While I agree that rattling cages may be a necessary step, I suggest caution. Don't try to do it if you're feeling vulnerable. I don't think the initial period of transition is the best one to go out there and fight such a big battle.

In order to "educate" people, the first thing you need to realize is that you can only "educate" them through who you are, not through what you say and not even through what you do. And that chances are you'll never obtain the effect you wish you had.

If you come across as unhappy, doubtful, scared, then no matter how nice is what you say, no matter how good your works, you won't get much out of it. You need to feel secure in yourself and happy enough to show your reality.

Education is not a process of bringing people around to your way of thinking, no. It's a process of making them understand that you have a different vision of the world, and your vision works as well as theirs, if not better. That can only be done if you're an all-around solid person.

If you're just starting transition, there will be days when you're weak and frustrated. There will be days with terrible news, and it will take you a long time to overcome them. You'll feel bad about yourself at points, you'll have doubts about what to do and what to say, you'll be scared about hurting people you love or care about.

Adding on top a need to educate your church may be too much.
_________________________
This a spiritual thing and I am the laughing Buddha sitting on top of the world. Donnalee.

Defeat The Cow!!! http://my.funtrivia.com/tournament/Callies-quiz-75578.html

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#289864 - 08/15/08 03:39 PM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church [Re: Hope_WA]
Erica Offline
Member

Registered: 03/02/08
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Originally Posted By: Hope_WA
I light of recent development within my church, I have thought about opening a dialogue with our pastor about transsexuality and homosexuality. Any suggestion about how to broach the subject in written form?

http://www.drbecky.com/lynnmont.html
http://www.miracles-course.org/display/Transgender.html
http://www.drbecky.com/erin.html
_________________________
Erica

“If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.” -- Jack Handey

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#289882 - 08/15/08 04:57 PM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church [Re: Erica]
Hope_WA Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/14/07
Loc: Eastern Washington state, U.S....
Gracias Erica
_________________________
"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." Henry David Thoreau

His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
Jesus answered, "Neither he nor his parents sinned; it is so that the works of God might be made visible through him. "
John 9:2-3

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#291177 - 08/23/08 10:36 AM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church [Re: Kymberley]
Ariadna Offline
Pledge

Registered: 06/14/08
Loc: tornado alley
Originally Posted By: Kymberley
Aviya -

I'm sorry to hear about your problem with your Church. I, too, was asked to leave after a few months at my Church and they knew of my transiton prior to me going there. I felt that if they were to treat me that way, they could fair better without my money. Interestingly enough, a few weeks after I was forced to leave, the pastor also left and the Church closed. Oh well.


Whoa. An established pastor? That's pretty heavy stuff. Then again maybe it was because he was having sex with a real woman and his uptight,frigid wife caught him and in order to stay in good standing within his community he had to leave the church. Who knows.

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#291178 - 08/23/08 10:39 AM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church [Re: Pink Cat]
Ariadna Offline
Pledge

Registered: 06/14/08
Loc: tornado alley
Originally Posted By: Pink Cat
Hope, it is my suggestion that who should not waste your time, trying to discuss that subject with preachers.

If you believe in God, you don't need a church.


Amen sister!

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#291181 - 08/23/08 11:04 AM Re: A Letter I Sent To My Church [Re: Hope_WA]
Deena Offline
Supreme Oracle

Registered: 05/11/06
Originally Posted By: Hope_WA
Gracias Erica

Hope a church is many different things. It is most of all a gathering of people who have either a relationship with God or seek one. They may gather in a building or in a field. At an event to reach out to others or in a sanctuary to pray and meditate.

I see quite a few posters here who scoff at religious people and even more who slag off churches. Yet I also see many who long for fellowship and some sort of interrelationships with other human beings. Going to Ts happenings in my opinion can be wonderful but cannot provide a well rounded life by themselves. Being a member of society and focusing on the interests and the cares of a group of people provides a great deal of fulfillment when the interest is in being part of something positive in a community where you reside.

I love my fellow members of the congregation where I attend church. I try my best to serve the church and I look for nothing other than joining in worship with other members.