GenderLife Forum: The Information Exchange

Hi there,

the last months I am thinking very, very seriously about going through transition. One main thing that worries me is that I have quite a big skeleton, a skeleton which is certainly larger even than the skeleton of the average male. I fear that my big skeleton will probably be a serious obstacle in my effort to try to make my body look feminine.

To help you understand about what I am talking I will tell you that while my height is 1,80 meters ( 5 feet 11 incles ), and in spite of the fact that I lost 20 kilos this last year, my weight is still very big, it is 95 kilos ( 209 lbs. ). This weight of mine is not mainly due to body fat ( I have only 17 kilos- 37 lbs.- of body fat), neither due to muscle mass ( I do not exercise, I do not go to gym, I generally do not do anything to build muscles ). So my big weight is mainly due to my skeleton.

I had a brief conversation with a doctor who performs FFS. I asked him some questions about FFS and I also talked to him about my weight and my skeleton. He told me that with a proper, strict diet I could lose even 30 kilos( 66 lbs.) and end up weighing 66 kilos ( 145 lbs. ) which would be the ""proper"" weight for a woman of my height. He told me that this may sound absolutely incredible and impossible but it is not.

Well, indeed it really seems to me absolutely incredible and impossible. I cannot understand how it is possible for me to lose all this weight. I do not seem to have such large quantities of soft tissue ( muscle mass and body fat) which can be lost through diet. And I am also afraid that if I follow the diet that this doctor recomends to me I will possibly start to suffer from ""Anorexia nervosa"" which as I know is very unhealthy and dangerous.

Anyway I am certainly going to talk to this doctor once more to clarify some things, but in the meanwhile I would like to ask you some questions.

Are there any people here with a body size and skeleton size similar to mine? If yes, have you gone through such a radical as the one that this doctor recomends to me? Have you managed to acquire through diet, hormone treatment etc. a female body with which you are satisfied?

If anyone here thinks that she has a skeleton size as big as mine and has gone through transition( or through some parts of it ) I would be glad to see her photos in order to have an idea about what kind of a body i can realistically expect to acquire through this transition process ( if offcourse she wants to share her photos with me, either through this public board or through a personal message )

PS. I would like to add to this post some photos of mine in order to give you a more accurate idea about my body, but I do not know how to do it. Can anybody help me?

Maybe you could try photobucket.com .As far as the rest of your post is concerned,I have no idea There are so many variables involved in hrt treatment that it's impossible to predict the outcome..

Really, all that can be taken from this information is that you are 5'11", and 209 lbs. The rest might be useful to healthcare or fitness consultants, who are designing future methods of care. But mostly that just says you likely have a slightly higher amount of muscle than "normal" for your activity level, because you recently lost weight.

Not going to the gym does not mean you have no muscle. Even if you were in a coma for several years, with zero muscular activity, you'd still have some muscle. Not enough to walk to the bathroom unaided, but some. Your current amount of muscle (or ratio of muscle to fat) depends on you lifestyle. Do you mostly sit in front of a computer, or are you fairly active? Do you eat healthy foods, or junk food? Going to the gym is not the only way to build muscle, and does not mean you will have bulky muscles.

I'd recommend finding a fitness consultant (easily found at a gym) and a diet consultant (sometimes found at gyms, but a doctor or gym person should be able to refer one) and ask them. Diet and exercise are the two major things that define how the body builds and maintains itself, as far as muscle/fat, metabolism, and overall size. These 2 consultants will have different perspectives on the same question. And be able to see you, and address your concerns more directly.

Just off the cuff, I'd say 145 lbs. is a bit lean. That's the low end of normal weights for your height. Hormones may mess with numbers a bit, but 160 seems a more reasonable short-term goal. Which could be refined as things progress.

I don't know how much skeletons weigh while still being used by the owner but I doubt there are great fluctuations for folks realtively the same size (guessing 10 lbs max).

145lbs is too light in my book for your height esp given that you are not natal female. I think most FTM's should carry a bit more weight than their natal female couterparts.

HRT will lessen some of your muscle mass (a big weight contributor) and of course redistribute body fat more appropriately.

Each individual considering transition has to calculate all the implications of doing so including the end physical result but our post appearance is just one factor and not the most important.

One's emotional well being and peace of mind are far more critical than the size or shape of one's body.

There is only one way for you to get your answer. Looking at pictures solicited from others is not it. Just loose weight and see where you end up and how you feel. I think before you do that you might want to re-examine your first sentence where you stated "I am thinking very, very seriously about going through transition". I know more than a few big hefty ladies who never gave their "big frames" a second thought because being a woman is simply not about the physical.

Its not really possible to loose that much weight, unless you want to be sure you will never ever have any real breast or figure development. However if you are willing to gain some back on HRT, and use the drastic drop as a method to get rid of your male fat and regrow proper female distribution its worth trying.

Women who are smaller boned at our height are usually atleast 150-160 more often than not.

Thanks for your answer.

I put some photos of mine.

If you ( or anybody else ) wants to see them, they are here.

http://www.genderlife.com/photopost/bulkupload.php?ppaction=addphotos&do=preview&photopath=2091&upuser=&notify=no&rating=&comments=yes&defcat=500&deftitle=in+absentia+4&defdesc=Me&defdesc=Me&keywords=&numprocess=10&processall=no&dthumbs=


Let me now give you an insight into some of my worries.

I put a measure tape around my chest ( basically a little lower, not exactly around the chest where the tits are ) and the result of the measurement was 3' 1''. I assumed that this cannot be significantly reduced since it seems that I do not have a significant amount of soft tissue above the skeleton there ( I mean that I touch myself there and I touch the bones of my rib cage which are almost exactly under my skin )

So isn't this 3' 1'' unnaturaly big for a woman?

I think that it is quite big even for a man.

I had the same result ( 3' 1'' ) when I put the measure tape around my waist, but I think that hopefully the waist line can be reduced more.

Concerning the rest that you said.

I went recently to a diet consultant, and I even talked to her about my thoughts on transition. She said to me that I can lose at least 20 more kilos ( 44 lbs. ), but she cannot say now whether it would be good for me to lose more.

She also told me that I have 186 lbs. muscle mass, while the ""normal"" amount of muscle according to her would be between 180lbs. and 193 lbs.

I used to eat quite usually junk food, but I limited it the last year that I followed the diet.

Concerning my lifestyle. I am not the kind of person who sits all day on the desk or the computer, but I am not very much active as well.
Somewhere in the middle I would say.

Thanks for your answer Jenny.

I agree with you that emotional well being is very important. But isn't one's emotional well being influenced by one's appearance?

I mean, doesn't someone feel better emotionally when she has an appearance she is satisfied with? And doesn't someone feel worse when she has an appearance she is not satisfied with?

In order to go through transition I will have to sacrifice many things socially, professionally and financially.

So one big fear of mine is that I will sacrifice all these things only in order to acquire an appearance with which I won't be satisfied at all, an appearance that will not look like a natural female appearance.

At least I am glad that I can share these fears of mine with all of you here, because in real life I can share them with very few people.

I'm am going through something similar the last couple of months. I'm a little taller at 193 cm (6'4" ish) a few months ago I weighed in the ballpark of 205 lbs. I'd been on hrt for about six months. Then I read a book that changed things big time. My partner actually started reading the book first. Its called "Skinny Bitch". She got a little bit into it and she said "I think they're going to tell me to go vegan." Well long story short the authors lay out a great argument for veganism in a funny and down to earth way. Well for the last two and a half months i've dropped over twenty lbs. The best part is that waist has gotten a lot smaller, but now my size 12 jeans don't fit any more. I always expected to gain weight on hrt, but since changing my diet i've been losing weight. I don't really want to get preachy and tell people they should be vegan, but if they're remotely considering it read "Skinny Bitch". That's my two cent, you can probably lose more weight than you think.
best of luck,
elisa

Hrt will not change your skeleton. I am 6'3" tall, weigh approx 240 lbs. You may gain weight once you are on estrogen.

I think the first thing you should think about doing, is getting rid of facial hair.

We all worry about our body image, even genetic girls. There are some really tall GG's, Many over 6'. The larger the person the larger the frame. Just the way it is.

I would suggest concentrating on more real problems, such as a job after transition, telling ones close to you about your transition, starting electrolysis, letting your hair grow out. Finding a really good therapist. Saving money, because transition costs alot.

Good luck.

The bad news first: you're never going to be a cute little thing.

The good news: jerks will think many times before messing with you.

There is much variation in men and women, and you're going to find women of any size if you look for them. Let's talk about clothes, though:

- at 5' 10" and above, you'll need tall sizes. It can reduce your choices, but the styles are nice.

- at 3' 1" around the chest, it means your bra band is 40 or 42. You'd have to try them. 40 is a common number, and finding bras in 40C or 40D is easy. However, chances are you'll need 40A when you start and 40B after. 40B is uncommon, but exists. 40A is very, very rare. If you're 42, it gets a lot more complicated and you may need to use extenders on a size 40 bra.

- size, that is the big one. Clothes after a size 16 become quite drab and the choices for nice, elegant clothes is small. Same for shoes above a size 10. Your BMI is almost 30, so it'd qualify as "overweight," but BMI doesn't tell the whole story. With your frame, losing over 10 Kg could be bad news: it can make passing harder, because when you're way too slim the bone structure under your skin shows more easily.

Right now, you must be a size 16-18, which puts you on the limit of the "good choices for clothes." If you can lose to 85 Kg without losing too much of the fatty layer under the skin, you'd be in the 14-16 range, which makes finding nice looking clothes much easier.

A 5' 11", size 16 woman is nothing out of the ordinary around here, by the way.

I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that you "only" have 17 kilos of body fat. There are some pinch measurements that purport to determine the percent body fat (of total weight). There are some rather expensive bathroom scales that provide a percentage body fat based on electrical conductivity. I'm not sure how accurate either of the algorithms used for these estimates are. The only really accurate measurement of body fat is to compare your weight dry with you weight while being fully suspended in a tank of water. Unfortunately, there are very few facilities capable of dangling you from scales while sitting in a swing and being dunked in water over your head. I just Googled “body fat” and came up with several hits on how to calculate percentage body fat.

On the other hand, 17 kilos of body fat with a total weight of 95 kilos is almost 18% body fat. I think you could realistically consider reducing that to 12%, or 84 kilos (184 lbs). Actually, I think your waist measurement of 3’1” is pretty big for your height, and may indicate you store fat in your abdomen rather than under the skin. One of the Google “body fat” calculators was from “Runners World” magazine <http://www.runnersworld.com/bodyfatcalc/>, and included several body measurements – including the waist.

I highly recommend the book “The New Fit or Fat” by Covert Bailey. It was published several years ago, but copies are still available from Amazon. Be prepared to leave your ego behind, you may find your carrying more fat than you thought. Also be prepared to work to get rid of it, one of the chapters in the book is “Diets Still Do Not Work”. Bailey wants you to exercise!

I think 3' 1" was for her rib cage, which is quite a bit more than the waist. 37" is not huge by any means. There are bras for women who are 42"-50" around the rib cage out there.

For women in their 30s, I've seen that a very common rib cage measurement is 33" to 35" (I visit a couple of diet boards, I like keeping my weight under control and mutual encouragement works).

Just before I almost finished killing myself with food and drink (I was thinking it might be a more pleasant way than
say guns or rope), I weighted in at (ahem) 240 lbs, (108 kg)
and of course, I didn't change in height any.

It occurred to me in a flash, that rather than dying, I might
,hell, I might do anything, I might live the life I'd always
dreamed of, wished for,etc.

Now, I must say,I had experienced some rather extraordinary
gains and losses thru out my life (such as painfully gaining
16" in height in 18 months as a pre-teen),which took me from
chubby to nastily skinny, but had primarily been more medium
as a youth, to slightly underweight as a teen and 20.

From my own extreme effort starting at age 39, I was able
to lose about 95 lbs over a 2 year period, from switching
to a raw vegan diet and doing ,on average 90 minutes of
mild to intense exercise a day (google "interval training").

So, my results during that time,were:

1. 238 --> 134 lbs
2. I lost significant body/muscle(and seemingly bone) mass
A. Specifically, the distance between my shoulders shrank
from perhaps 8 to at a minimum of 6 inches.
B. I lost 3 shoe sizes (but I did also previously have a
good deal of edema in my feet and legs)
C. I have old shirts,where the shoulder seam used to hit
me evenly on the right spot, that, later, it went down
halfway my upper arm. My shoulder shrank. I don't know
how else to explain it.
3. I made some specific efforts to do , exercises to
emphasize the femininity of my body.
4. As a pre-teen, teen and 20, I'd had a very androg body
even while working overtime to build muscle mass,etc.


SO. I mention all of thise to say:

1. Is it possible? yes
2. Is it EASY, not in the least,
A. you have to learn to , dare I say, Eat like a girl
and exercise like one too. (i.e starve and also work
your butt (or shoulders, or whatever) off
3. Can it work for you? I did all of this before restarting
(I'd been on estrogen for 3 years in my 20s and it made me
easily gain weight, so I knew I *had* to take action for my
goals) ,before restarting HRT, because I knew it would be
almost impossible afterwards, even starving and exercising
like a demon. So, it is POSSIBLE, for most (90?%) of folks
but that is still no guarantee for you.

4. I specicfically tried to go BELOW an ideal weight
so that I could restart HRT and gain 10 lbs back and
have it in the right places.

5. You CAN LOSE MUSCLE MASS from a very low protein and
low fat diet. it is very important to keep high cardio
activities and low "strength" (high reps/low weight),etc.

No guarantees, it is possible, its not easy. takes some
serious commitment.

I'm only going to leave this up for 24 hours or so.
Before and after SOLEY WEIGHT LOSS: before h4t
left is 1996, after is 2001
http://cgi101.com/~srl/dvm/b4/b4-after.jpg



7 years later, 1 week ago on my b-day, I've gained back
(eeek) like 40 lbs, grrrr
http://s3.amazonaws.com/facestat/thumb/298851e42cfabd23d80898337657346a.jpg


ALso, please remember, all this weight/body is basically body/health management TOUGH STUFF, that NOTHING directly
to do with transition. transition nastiness, loss
etc, is maybe tougher? it differs, so

Try this:
try a very intensive weight loss,exercise program like I
did, hire a personal trainer, or something, starve,but
eat healthy (yes, impossible, I realize)

regardless of transition, you'll probably feel better
its very relieving to just feel rejuvenated.

also try googling "perricone diet"

Re: how to post pics

right click photo, pick copy shortcut or
copy image url, then post that, then folks can see it

You OUGHT to have a panel in your posting that includes
a bunch of icons one of which loooks like :
http://www.genderlife.com/forum/images/markup_panel/default/image.gif

click that, a popup box should appear where can paste
in the URL of whatever pic

PLEASE BE CAREFUL about posting pics.
Andrea has a big essay on that on tsroadmap
about privacy.

Just try the diet/exercise regimen, regardless of
transition, you'll feel better and live longer for
that and nothing else.

best of luck.

37 inches around the rib cage I think is not large at all for males. It is a bit big for females but not overly.

Mine is around 36-37 and I use a 36 or 38 inch band size for bras. Not tight just comfy snug. My girls would slide out of a 42.

Face clearing and HRT are the big factors along with voice and social conditioning.

It is possible to lose a lot more weight than you think. I also didn't exercise much, but T makes you put on muscle without having to try that hard.

I'm 5' 8.5", and I went from 185 lbs in April 07 down to 143 lbs in October 07. I never thought that I would be able to lose that much weight, but I just watched (carefully) what I ate and got a moderate amount of cardio. I still had a bit more fat around my waist than I wanted, too. After having been on HRT for the last 8.5 months I'm back up to 155 lbs, but have essentially forced to satisfy what feel like ridiculous cravings. Some of the weight went back on my waist, but also breasts, and hips/thighs. I now actually feel chubby again at 155, a weight that I never thought I could actually achieve.

My hope is that post-SRS, once my estrogen levels become less extreme, the cravings will become more controllable, and I'll seek getting to around 140 lbs.

For the record, my underbust is at 35", and I wear a 34A or 36A, depending on the manufacturer. Like jenny_w, not tight just snug. If you look at the sizes the common range is from 34 to 42, with 36-40 being the most common.

You can do it. You and I are the same height and I went from 155 down to 115 which is the same 40 lbs you lost. And yes I went from a 36 underbust measurement down to 32. I agree most important is avoiding anything with grease including meats, fries and such. Also avoid starches and sugar. I eat mostly steamed veggies and some fish with occasional indirect heat grilled chicken.

Wrong. My mother was my height less one inch and she was always about 110 lbs. The same holds true for my first and second cousins. In fact the figures for those who walk the runways in the fashion magazines are 5 foot 7 to 5 foot 10 and 110 to 120 lbs. My breasts are 34 B cup and I have never had any chest surgery, just hrt. Waist is 26 and hips are 34. I just measured all 3 to make sure those are current numbers. Now maybe you consider that having no figure but size 2 fits me wonderfully from most manufacturers and 1's and 3's in misses sizes.

QR: Something doesn't add up here.

The band of a bra is supposed to be rib cage + 4 inches, rounding up or down depending.

So if you're 37" around the rib cage, counts as 41" band and that is either a 40 or 42.

I'm 34" around and 38 in bras, sometimes 36. I could never fit a 34, and I find it puzzling that someone who is 35" could take a 34 band size.

Are you gals sure you're measuring correctly?

I've been mystified by this as well. I went out and found the same information on a variety of sites, claiming that the bra band size is supposed to be rib cage + 4 inches. At the time I was a bit lighter and my ribcage was at 34", measured just below my bust. So I went and tried on a 38, and they were just plain too big on me. Maybe I'm measuring in the wrong place, but that big a bra just doesn't fit me. The only thing I've noticed is that my ribcage is not as tapered as my cisgendered girlfriend's. Her ribcage tapers down toward her natural waistline, while mine is much straighter. Perhaps the bra designers are assuming this taper, and my not having it means I don't obey their rules? Most of my bras are now a 36, the 34 I can only wear because I've had it a while and it stretched out.

Some bras are for full figured women, therefore the cup is quite large. My big problem are the shoulder straps, I have to sew in extensions.

Judging just with my eyes( not with a measure tape ), I would say that where I live there are few men and very, very, very, very few women who have 37 inches around the rib cage.

I think I should move to US in order to feel less big.

Stop whining!
I am fortunate that I am short (5'0"). I have worked quite hard at being thin. You are starting out at 5'11" and 209 lbs. with what sounds like 20% bodyfat. I started at 5' and 165 lbs. with 6% bodyfat. I'm now 125 lbs. and about 8%, which is still too lean, but I can't lose the muscle mass if I keep a little more fat on me.

For the first time in my life, I am beginning to like the way my body looks looks, although I need to lose quite a bit more mass in my arms, and some other parts needs to go as well.

Despite being a delicate flower, I still wear a 38 in a bra. If I can pull of a 38 at 5', you can ceratinly look feminine with a 42 at 5'11", and when you lose the weight, you'll probably be a 40, or even a 38.