GenderLife Forum: The Information Exchange

With the lack of accurate statistics on trans-issues, the 'study' below sheds some light on some of the discriminatory practices that trans people face every day.


http://www.tavausa.org/Survey_Results.html

Here the results of the 2004 survey were so bad, this year's results are not showing up everywhere.

We have rates of unemployment and underemployment that could only mean the lot of us are a bunch of retards, or very discriminated.

I prefer to think it's the latter.

Who are these people they are surveying? The "statistics" have to be completely inaccurate non-sense. Otherwise, how have we afforded our vaginoplasties, facial surgeries and the like.

My conclusion is that I don't trust such "statistics" and I don't trust such "researchers", with their "studies" and hidden "agendas". It is rarely clear what they are trying to achieve. What is almost always quite clear, is that the medical establishment has done little or nothing to change the fundamentals for the past forty years. For example, early on, decades ago, people got vaginoplasty surgeries paid for by insurance, until people "noticed" and began writing contractual exclusions into health insurance policies. The medical establishment did NOTHING to protest or go to bat for our population. That is just one of many fundamental examples of how the medical establishment and the legal establishment have both failed our population. Our population has survived in spite of them.

Their "statistics" are bunk in large part I think because their "stats" don't actually measure us. They certainly haven't never measured or assessed me. I have always been employed and prosperous. I believe that our population is largely populated by prosperous people are completely invisible to those idiotic "surveys".

It's not about getting money for vaginoplasty. It's what happens after that, or before that. The published stats for this province fit to perfection with the situation of the MTF people around here I know: freelancing, unemployed, working casual, working at the university in some clerical position for peanuts, etc. I only know of two transwomen in this whole area with decent jobs, and (from what I've heard) one of them lost her job last year ("downsizing") and is still looking for something.

The way many finance surgeries is running into credit card debt. I'd do it that way, too, if my cards were more than $500 top each.

Well, it's the armed forces. They are not supposed to be nice. If ya want nice, then don't join the forces, common sense I would have thought.

PS: We had about three years ago an article on Monday magazine, a very popular one here on the island, where they interviewed several TS women in BC. They made a point how the protections had completely failed us and since they were passed the situation of TS people had deteriorated. They probably had an agenda, too, considering the mag was in the process of being acquired by the Black Press Group.

But all the women they interviewed were in a dire situation. One of them had moved up north the island to avoid threats, and was living on welfare. Another had been waiting for years to get financing for surgery, etc.

I also know a few successful TS women, including one who has a mansion up island and just the paintings in her living room are over a million dollars. She's retired (she's in ther 40s) and received most of her wealth from family, including a company she made grow and later sold. Wonderful person, I must add.

So, yes, there are successful transwomen around, but of them I only know two who are part of the work force. The rest are "independently wealthy."

Well, without having read the study yet (i will), almost ALL of the transwomen I know in real life are unemployed or self-employed. I don't think I know a single transwoman that has financed transition while out in the workforce.

Most have financed transition via home equity loans, savings, student loans, etc... I know **very** few that have worked during transition. The ones that have worked do so as independent contractors. I know one that is a hair dresser, another that is a real estate agent, one that repairs cars. The key thing is that they don't work for direct supervisors or have "coworkers" per se.

Yeah when I frequented the support groups in town most were unemployed or "freelancing," one who was doing a job for which she was overqualified, one that managed to transition in the job (a good job) but honestly didn't seem to be trying to pass, a few who still had their good jobs but were "just starting" (some had been "just starting" for years from what I was told), and a few who were students and still depending on their family or student loans.

On campus, the TS folks managed to get some work, but it was mostly the FTMs. For MTFs, it was always the short-term positions (clerical) that pay little. A FTM could get a job as a secretary of the humanities deptmt. and be there permanently, while a MTF would be put to look over the files and retrieve them in Records for a short term contract.

After the contract was over, the university was done with you. But not with the FTMs. Several of them managed several jobs on campus one after the other.

Read the appendices at the bottom of the page to see who the people are they surveyed and their methodology. Veterans who identify as trans for the most part.

'WE' haven't all afforded our vaginoplasties. Maybe you hang with a different group than I do?

As for being totally inaccurate nonsense; I don't think I'd go that far. It looks like they put a lot of effort into being as accurate as possible considering the circumstances. It's not easy to come up with accurate statistics on people who value their privacy as much as trans-people do.

I applaud their efforts.

Why not do a study of your own? There's a challenge for you.

Of course FTM's pass better but perhaps there is the factor of becoming a male is a step up whilst becoming female is a moving down in many minds.

I wonder if the day will come when Transsexuals are no longer studied for the Cisgender agenda? In reality we are no different then them. We just got the shaft in the womb.

"Sorry for bad pun, but it is true"

I do not believe our population needs to be studied for any purpose. I have yet to see any "study" provide any tangible benefit for our population. Such studies are however notorious for providing benefit to the academics who create them, in the form of promotions and tenure.

IMO, the "researchers" need to leave us alone until:

- they first work to get vaginoplasty and FFS covered by health insurance.

- they first work to get statutes changed everywhere to provided for complete identity documentation repair.

- they first work to us full legal status and protections everywhere.

Even then, I don't want or need to be studied. I have long since been fixed and done, and hope others achieve the same ASAP.

I've never replied to their surveys, and (because I'm on the MSP, cursed be my stars) I receive all of their surveys.

If they weren't printed in such a sturdy paper, I could give them better use.

But what you're asking is naïve. All people doing studies do so to get something: promotions, tenure, funding, etc.

No one cares. We all just want to know. It's human nature.

Thank you for posting this link up, Jillian. My employer hires (or tries to) a lot of military veterans. They are always looking for ways to expand their labor pool, and this could be an opportunity for them.

Rachel

i prefer not to go by study statistics or staticians findings as they most generally are a load of crap

seriously as someone who does background checks on new applicants and that and someone who interviews people for promotion i would never use anything like this

discrimination comes in all forms really and its not against transgendered or the ethnic group its also done against the straights and the whites

so i personally tend to stay well away from these sorta findings as they are without foundation with intent to brainwash people

I certainly don't disagree that surveys and statistics can (and usually are) used in a misleading fashion. They are a way for people to gain support for a particular viewpoint that they subscribe to (in this case that TG US military veterans are victimized). They do this for a purpose (in this case to influence US military policy). So we certainly shouldn't take the survey/stats as painting too broad a stroke about our entire community. The authors even admit to this, that their sampling techniques are horribly biased, being internet-based and self-selecting.

However, I disagree that these surveys serve no purpose at all. IMHO, one of the keys to successful negotiation is using objective criteria when resolving conflict. Objective in this sense meaning "outside of the two directly interested parties". It's emotionally satisfying (to a point) to simply say, "I don't need anyone to validate my experience", and it's certainly true -- you don't. However, when negotiating, this quickly devolves into a 'you say, I say' contest of wills. So external surveys like this bring some amount of credibility into the negotiation.

And so I say it's useful, for that purpose. But yes, certainly don't take it to mean too much...

Rachel

Whatever good comes out of them is a side effect.

The main purpose is to get a certain group some grant, or to get some guy with a sociology master's degree a perm position, etc.

I know. Been there.

<rant>
To no-one in particular. . .

How jaded some people seem! Not everyone has a hidden agenda. Heaven forbid that a group of primarily transgender people (TAVA) would want to help American Veterans who are being shit on because they're trans!

Did they get a grant? Are they applying for a grant? I have no idea, and I don't care. How much money has been spent by the US govt. studying the need for basic human rights for transgender people? None that I know of!

But they sure spend tax money on their war for oil and their torture chambers and put bribe and corruption money into their bank accounts in the Grand Caymans and Switzerland so that when the US turns into a third world country they can just move somewhere else and live in luxury.

Let's put the blame where it belongs. These statistics are NOT a bad thing. Maybe they aren't accurate, but someone got off of their ass and did something instead of sitting around complaining about why 'statistics' are always wrong and how trans-people are pidgeon-holed by cisgender people.

I have a novel idea. How about everyone on the forum picking out something that needs to be done to help trans people and then actually doing it? Oh, you don't have time? Or you can't afford it? Or you dont' want to be 'outed.' Or you don't need equal rights because people don't know you're trans? Don't forget, that can change!

I suggest that we stop complaining. If you don't get off your own ass and do something you have no right to throw stones at those who do.

Just because we have all seen flawed statistics put out by people with their own agenda in the past, does not mean that transgender people do not desperately need accurate ones.

There are people just beginning transition who are lost and reaching out for help. There are kids who are living in despair because they're trans and they may be killed before they're old enough to make legal decisions on their own. There are trans-people doing sex work because they can't get a job because of who they are. WTF?

Why do we fight ourselves on these things?

We should get angry! Not at the people gathering statistics to show discriminatory practices, but at the politicians and the corporations who run this freakin' world!

</rant>

Well you do have a point. There is another study happening back east, which is not yet completed. Yes we (The entire TS population) should have band together. To get angry and deal with our common enemies (fore a mentioned, politicians in government) But we seem to shoot the messenger sometimes. and each other.

Actually, I'm saying the surveys seem very correct to me, and they can produce good as a side effect. That's praise.

Even if they are actually intended to get some transperson a position in some research centre, big deal.

I wouldn't answer one just because I don't like surveys.

Surveys are typically not very valid when you examine the structure, population sampled and frequency distributions of contact methodologies. This one is no exception. And yes we are in reality nothing but bugs in someone's project. Bugs get gassed and tossed out when the primary objective has been attained.

I take your point well Jill.

What have I done for TS folks?

Nothing. I am grateful to all those that make an effort to do so. It is the easiest thing to pick stuff apart and naysay.

This is a veterans organization. I stupidly served this country in one of its wars. These days I am an avowed pacifist. I advocate not letting any Ts serve in the military. In fact I advocate not letting any U.S. personnel serve on foreign soil. The constitution only provides the authority for maintaining a defensive force not a world police operation. So I guess I am prejudiced against this group for reasons entirely unrelated to their study. I would prefer they had sat on their arse as you put it. Just my personal opinion. I am sure they are well intended.

There is always time to start. Good luck.


Yes. We should all get away from seeing things only in black and white terms. Acceptance of others is paramount to societal acceptance in my humble opinion.

i aint done nothin either and nor am i interested in doing so
as statistics state most trans do campaign
But i go against the grain as i didnt transition to be an outed transsexual i did it to become me a woman inside and out and blend in

What statistics are you citing?