GenderLife Forum: The Information Exchange

Another country heard from...

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OTTAWA (AFP) - A criminally insane man jailed for sexually assaulting two women is demanding a sex change and wants Canada's publicly funded health care pay for it, said a local paper Sunday.

[...]

In 1976, Egglestone was found not guilty of a brutal rape by reason of a mental disorder, and was institutionalized for treatment.

He pleaded guilty to a second sexual assault in 1985 for confining and choking another woman, shortly after being released from the mental hospital.

Taylor now blames this criminal behavior on a gender identity disorder.

"I was a female trapped inside a male's body," Taylor told the Sun. "I started acting out in ways that I thought a male was supposed to act ... my head was in a spin back then."

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/090309/canada/canada_crime_sex_health

That would be like putting the fox in the hen house.

They are not taking him , seriously ,I hope?

This is why people like the BBLZ can push their dumbass ideas. This person puts transsexuals in a bad light with the general public. The religous right now has more ammo to use against TS people. The media hasn't helped

This is just bad, nothing good can come of this. Canada isn't the most progressive place for TS people to begin with. This is just not good.

I say give her what she wants. Won't be raping anyone without a penis. At the very least give her an orchi.

I don't know that I actually believe that GID caused her to brutally rape women. Whatever. But, you're right. At least give her an orchi to decrease the chance that she'll do this to anyone else ever again. If I were one of the women "she" raped, I would be all for the SRS being granted. It's hard to shoot someone if you don't have a gun, isn't it?

I hate seeing headlines like this. It collectively casts transgender people in a bad light. This simply sounds like propaganda to me.

If this person does have GID, wouldn't one consider withholding 'medically necessary' treatment while someone is incarcerated to be 'Cruel and Unusual punishment?'

Would it be ok to withhold HIV drugs from a gay inmate because they could be seen as giving gay men a bad name?

Would withholding GID treatment from the inmate imply that such treatment is not medically necessary, and how would that affect us.

(I don't want to discuss whether GID is the appropriate way to talk about this instead of say, vaginal agenesis, as I can't remember the ICD code for that, and the difference isn't really relevant to the question. Replace the acronym GID with that ICD code if that makes you more comfortable)

No. When your liberty is taken from you the government assumes a lot of obligations according to our legal systems. Among those are a person's well being and that includes medical care. However that does not mean if a person has rotten teeth the state has to provide dental implants (as an example). It does mean that medical care must be provided for treatable lie threatening conditions. However if the threat is on of suicide then the treatment is isolation and 24 hour observance.

In the arena of GID or alleged GID the judicial decisions are just now being written and it will be quite a few years before the courts work their way to clearly defined rules. Typically that will lag behind what the medical community applies as standards in general society.

One important fact to remember is that incarceration expenses are borne by the taxpayers. Inmates with incurable conditions are often released by the system to live out their last few years or to avoid extremely high costs. In the case of murder, however, release for medical conditions is extremely rare.

In answer to one of your questions nothing decided in an incarceration situation will affect us. Jail decisions follow rather than lead the justice system.

Isolation and 24 hour observation could be considered cruel and unusual punishment as well.

There is a chance that the individual is claiming transsexuality in order to claim a lesser charge in an appeal due to 'insanity', as transsexualism is still considered a mental disorder via the DSM.

I think a concern many of us have, however, is that this may imply to the general public that transsexualism is a mental illness that may cause violence. Silence of the lambs, and all.

Actually after thinking about Shauna's remark which was...

the proper medical treatment would seem to be a lobotomy not an orchie. The problem doesn't seem to be related to the testicles at all but rather to the way he thinks men should behave with women. As an alternate treatment some big strong male inmate could be turned loose to choke and rape the bi*ch since she sees that as proper male behavior! Just my thoughts.

Indeed. I'd say a right to treatment doesn't stop if someone commits a crime, no matter how offensive or atrocious. But I'm such a sop I'd likely defend Pol Pot's rights, too.

The rape must be dealt with, as it likely is, but it's a separate issue from the possible TSity, which should be considered separately.

I see that you're not using pronouns Roxanne, which implies you may possibly also have reservations about "this person['s]" true gender feelings. I'm using male pronouns because I see this person as a man who sexually assaults women. Maybe I'll feel differently when I cool down. But, I was molested when I was younger and what he did is so wrong and hurtful. This is someone who, as a man, sexually assaulted women on two documented occasions (who knows how many were NOT documented). Now, he may have done that because he truly had GID and took his feelings out on innocent women who lived life the way he wished to. But, he also may be obsessed with the female form and may simply wish to be the object of his own desires. Another possibility is that he may feel so guilty for what he has done that he would rather be a woman so he can never again do such things.

I don't know if anyone will ever truly know if he actually has GID or not. I have my doubts about it. After 9 years of gender transition, you'd think the GID is legitimate (and perhaps it is). But, I think that by his own actions, he established that he has some serious mental issues. There are thousands of us who cannot afford SRS for ourselves. I don't think it's fair that someone of his character proclaims that they have GID and gets their surgery for free. It seems the problem is between his ears, not between his legs.



I didn't mean to imply that giving him SRS gives us a bad name ;-). I just think that stories like this are damaging to trans people. What is the reason for posting the article? Is it to simply disseminate information about an occurrence? Or is the article a subtle call to action? Is it propaganda?

I think that a gay person with HIV should be given drugs to keep them alive. It can easily be proven that the man is gay, has HIV, and will die without treatment. But, in this case, you have a sex offender who did unspeakable things to women and is now claiming that he has been one all along? Nope, I'm not buying it. That's like someone beating black people and owning them as slaves, only to one day say... I didn't really mean it. I want to be black, too. I just thought that was how white folk were supposed to act. For me, the nature of his offense makes me suspicious of his having GID at all. Now, maybe that's a bit unfair, but that's the way I feel. How would any of you feel if he raped your sister and the government funded his SRS but denied yours?



It certainly could. I'd like to think that a person can go to jail, serve their time, and come out rehabilitated. But, after having sexually assaulted women once and being lucky enough to not be found guilty, he went and did it again. Was that really the last time? I generally think that once you do your time and are set free, you should enjoy the liberties that everyone has. I just don't believe he has GID. I may be completely wrong in that feeling and I admit it. But, I just don't trust him. He did unspeakable things to women and then says he's one, too? Sure. I think he's a perverted man.

I suspect he doesn't have GID either, and is perhaps preparing for an appeal on grounds of 'insanity' if there is such a thing in Canada.
However, for other individuals, that may not be the case.

I read that article,and it doesn"t say whether or not that person is in jail at this time?.I don"t think so.I think that person is currently out of jail,and was just in court asking for $$$$$.Maybe I missed something when I read it?

…..ok….
I’m conflicted, really really conflicted.

As a sexual abuse and sexual assault survivor I want to use a chainsaw on this person. Do they even realize how much damage they have done to others in this life? How dare they!

As someone with GID I know how devastating it would be to deny someone who truly has GID from getting the required surgeries that are needed to transition.

I’m so glad that I don’t have to make this decision.

I only know one thing, Marcella should get her SRS before this human scum gets the correct time of day.

Oh and I read some of the comments on the website and its just short of people quoting Silence of the Lambs. Way to go ‘girl’ friend…… anyone got a chainsaw?

This is getting a bit darker, actually.

Vance Egglestone, aka Shauna Taylor, now 52, was one of the people who participated and survived three Canadian programs of "rehabilitation" in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

Perhaps little known in the USA is the fact that, unlike most countries around the world, Canada allowed for human experimentation with prisoners until fairly recentyl (1989).

People in prisons and teens in reformatory places could be "treated" with drugs, electricity, and other methods now considered "torture" just to see how their behaviour could be modified.

Three of those methods were:

- Motivation, Attitude, Participation Program -

"The M.A.P. program involved rotating groups of between four to eight men who were forced to sit on a bare Terrazo floor for approximately eight hours daily without being permitted more than two moves per group. Standing was not permitted and failure to comply with the non-movement orders and other directives with the M.A.P. program resulted in the individual being verbally confronted, heavily sedated with Nozinan or Largactil, put in restraints or placed in solitary confinement.

Prior to placement in the M.A.P. program, participants were placed in solitary confinement for a period of time."

http://www.oakridgeclassaction.ca/map.htm

- Total Encounter Capsule Program -

"The Capsule is a small windowless room with dimensions approximately 8’ x 10’. Groups of four or more men would be stripped naked and placed in the Capsule for periods of up to two weeks at a time. The space was always lit, leading the men to be unable to distinguish day from night, confusion, disorientation, and serious confrontations between the men ensued.

During detention in the Capsule, the men were given various drugs including LSD and other hallucinogens.

The only nourishment provided to the men in the Capsule were in beverage form and had to be consumed through the use of straws inserted through holes in the Capsule food dispensers."

http://www.oakridgeclassaction.ca/capsule.htm

- Defence Disruptive Therapy -

"Defence Disruptive Therapy program was an experimental program developed by Dr. Barker in the mid-1960’s. The program consisted of injecting inmates with drugs suggested to psychiatrists by other patients. These included LSD, amphetamines and Ritalin, and were frequently mixed together with alcohol resulting in toxic hallucinogenic cocktails.
Predictably, by late 1967, the patients who received “treatment” under this program experienced an increased risk of homicide and suicide."

http://www.oakridgeclassaction.ca/ddt.htm

An interesting statistic is that out of over 100 people who participated in those programs, 62 committed suicide, according to what I've read. Most of the others died of drug overdoses or in accidents. In fact, Vance Egglestone (who was one of the guinea pigs when he was 16-21) is the only survivor left of the group in the Penetanguishene Youth Rehab Program that functioned from 1967 to 1979.

There is a class action suit against the people involved in the human experimentation in the camp (which lies by what today is a Naval Base) and the only person fit to declare against those people is, you guessed it, Vance Egglestone:

http://bacque.graeme.tripod.com/HRA/HRA_14.html

The systematic torture of teens in Penetanguishene and two other places in Ontario unleashed a full investigation of Canada as a violator of Human Rights back in the 80s, which ended with the cancelation of all programs using drugs, sleep deprivation, injection of extraneous substances and isolation in Youth Camps (interestingly, most of the subjects were First Nations).

There may be a lot more to what we see in the initial article. I have my suspicion that Mr. Egglestone may commit "suicide" any of these days. Some of the people who tried accusing the perpetrators of these crimes died under very shady circumstances (one was detained for a speed violation and overdosed himself while in custody back in 1992).

And from what I read, there are two interesting things:

- one, over 50 people who were held in such programs were still out there in 1998, ready to participate in the class action suit through the legal firm of Rochon Genova. The main plaintiff is Vance Hamilton Egglestone.

- two, Egglestone is since 1999 in police custody in an institution for the criminally insane. His case has been on and off in the news, and the media attention started when in 1999 his lawyer said on TV that his client was under threat of death. I have not found what was the cause for the government to put him in this facility all of a sudden in 1999, considering he had been free since 1988 and started the class action suit in 1998. Seems a bit strange that someone who was out and about as a sane person is put in a mental institution right after he sues the government, no?

Also, the people who are in charge of the place where Egglestone is now are the same people who were in charge of the Penetanguishene Mental Health Centre back in the 70s and 80s when he was interned there and subjected to the "correctional methods" now condemned. The Oakridge Division is in fact besides the place of the old program.

Ok, let's think a bit. You were abused by your government, you start a class action suit with other 50 people who survived.* Out of those 50, some start dying (suicide, overdose, strange circumstances) so that they all leave the court action after some payment, quiet settlements. Since you're the person who started the whole ruckus, you cannot just leave.

Then you get put in custody (because all of a sudden your government finds you a danger to the public) and you know your life is not worth a dime at that point. But you have a good lawyer, who runs to the press and says that his client is in fear of his life. The press pays little attention.

What could you do to grab the attention of the media, something that will keep you in the public eye for years and ensure that you're not just found dead in your cell?

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* http://www.oakridgeclassaction.ca/document/vol%201/Vol%201%20sec%202.pdf

I have a chainsaw.

Quick Reply...One license plate at a time.

I'd suggest locking him in a room at the Clarke Clinic with Bailey, Blanchard, Zucker and let them try reparitive therapy to cure him - hoping he had a psychotic breakdown.

Well, that bit of history DOES add a bit of perspective to this whole thing. I am not in favor of sexually assaulting people, but I am not in favor of torturing the shit out of people either.

Insane mental torture -> sexual assault -> trans identifying?

I can't say whether they truly are trans, but Marcella, your theory is interesting. I would like to see this case follow through, and it is really disturbing just how... disturbing mental institutions and the type of people who run them are.

Also, just because he committed a crime/sexually assaulted a person doesn't mean that he isn't trans.

The fact is:
The Canadian Criminal Justice system supports the FREEZE policy.
i.e., If a TS is under HRT, they will continue as such but not granted further treatment, that includes surgery.
So, this person will not likely even get hormones.

Not sayin' this is good or bad, but just the way it is at the moment in Canada.

Anyone wanting more info regarding TSs in the Canadian prison system please link here:
http://www.barbarafindlay.com/articles/45.pdf

Well, after all these years living in North America, I'm quite convinced the justice system here is just as it is in the Third World: mostly a political weapon. I know people who break the law left and right and are never bothered by law enforcement, heck you can see people selling buds downtown while laughing with the cops, while I also know people who have very clean lives who just get harassed out of the blue, due to political reasons.

I have a good reason to suspect a sizable portion of people in jail are there not because they committed crimes, even if that is the reason on paper, but because they were not wanted outside spreading certain types of information and ideas.

Rich people break the law in ways that most of us would never even consider doing, because if we did we know we'd land our arse in jail. But there's also the converse: some folks live like the stereotypical Black guy in the South, always with a patrol car tailing him. Some people have to be careful not to do anything even slightly illegal, throwing a bubblegum wrap in the street or jaywalking can land them in trouble, while others can sell X in the corners without being troubled.

That's just the way it is. So wisdom is to know how much in the red with the system your personal situation puts you. And live accordingly.

M you are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to say it is warped. Your perspective is not from a knowledge of the actual operations of Jails, Prisons and law enforcement but from observation of a statistically insignificant number of minor events.

As to this specific case I do agree that the individual may be attempting to increase the chances that he survives due to notoriety but that is mere speculation on both our parts.

As to the Freeze approach in the Canadian prison system it reflects the reality that taking away a person's liberty carries with it legal responsibility for the medical care necessary to avoid declines in health. There is no legal responsibility under statute or case law that requires improving a person's health as far as I know. Court challenges are always in process so maybe Canada has recently had prison system obligations increased but I doubt it or it would have probably made the news. For example under the Freeze obligations a person might need bad teeth pulled so they were capable of eating but there is no obligation to provide dentures and certainly not implants if teeth removal allows functional food consumption. Remember that whatever is done is at taxpayer expense and improving the medical condition or life of an inmate who is incarcerated for crimes against society has never been an authorized tax dollar expenditure. Even such things as exercise yards and exercise periods are only provided to allow the health of inmates to be maintained not improved.

Ok Marci, I put the chainsaws away...

If this person was subjected to any of the programs Marci listed that would be nightmarish and would in fact lead to person having further life issues.

I honestly didn't think the Canadian government could be that bad. Boy was I wrong.

The person needs treatment true (heck, they’ll need long term care and treatment for the rest of their life), but past bad acts...

Therapy, yes, HRT? ok sure...SRS? that could be further torture to that person.

There is NO right answer here, none at all.

It’s sad that the state damaged this person in a program worthy of the Nazi’s Dr.Mengele. Therefore the state has culpability for that persons actions after those dehumanizing events and should be held accountable for that.
Monetary? Money doesn’t buy a mind or a life back.

I don’t know if this person needs SRS, you can’t tell from a few brief sentences in a news article.
But… this person does deserve some justice of some kind.

Is this person even in jail? It didn't say she was in jail but has been jailed in the past.

I'm not sure what the issue is - give the girl her SRS.

If she is in jail she can wait till she gets out, quite frankly. Punishment is punishment.

No, Vance Egglestone was put in a mental institution for the criminally insane right after they (Egglestone and his first lawyer) started the process against the Penetanguishene Mental Health Centre in 1998.

According to it, over 200 men between 1968 and 1982 were subjected to torture as methods of "Social Therapy." The suit involved not just the Mental Health Centre, but several top politicians of the time, who allowed the existence of the place and even benefited from it.

In 2000 it became a class action suit, collecting the testimony of many other individuals and claiming jail terms for some doctors (including Ontario’s Attorney General and psychiatrist Elliot Barker). Since then, most of the other people taking part have dropped out, some in very strange circumstances.

In 2001 Egglestone started this whole "transsexual in distress" sketch that has kept him in the public eye, to our detriment (and more so in Canada). However, if one follows the case, it seems it may be an act to keep attention focused on him. As is, right now he's in the Oak Ridge facility in Penetanguishene, Ontario.

Yes, the same place where he and many others were tortured in the 60s and 70s. In fact, some of the people in charge today are the same who were working there in 1982, when the torture methods were discontinued. Vance Egglestone aka Shauna Taylor is 52, born in 1956. Vance was there since the age of 16 to the age of 21, that is from 1972 to 1977.

The Penetanguishene Mental Health Centre operated as a "Social Therapy Unit" from 1968 to 1982. As per the suit, human experimentation was carried in there with the knowledge of the top politicians of the province. These included sleep deprivation, use of drugs like LSD and Scopolamine, sensory deprivation and electricity.

It's scary stuff.

http://bacque.graeme.tripod.com/HRA/hra_14.pdf

That article sounds biased. Scopolamine wasn't developed by the Nazi's, it's a natural chemical found in Jimsonweed. Angels Trumpet, and various Nightshades.

I have no doubts that Psychiatric facilities did some cruel things, no doubt about it, though.

Maybe biased isn't the right word. Exaggerating the truth, perhaps.

If she's a resident of Ontario she's out of luck, cause Ontario isn't paying for SRS. As far as I know Health Care is a provincial matter.

Though I would say the legal implications of the case could benefit the trans community in the provinces that are not currently funding it, it's a different matter entirely for the legal system to have either 1) a MtF in a male prison/facility, and 2) The name of the person convicted, if it is male, putting that person in a female prison/institution after SRS, even though they've been convicted of serious crimes against women.

I would say, if the person convicted is legally female, there would be a better chance. But then, that's a non-issue with this.

I'm not all too familiar with the mental health facilities, but from what I know about where I was, the guys and girls were in the same place. I guess maybe that's a different circumstance, is this Oak Ridge divided between male and female? Does anyone know?

This case is interesting.

It seems the men and women are housed in the same place from what I've read.

That's interesting, and could prove beneficial for the case compared to what I was thinking.

I kinda want this person to win the case, so I can get SRS funded.

The article says jailed - that's slightly misleading.

I was a transsexual in distress. I had severe delusions in my late adolescence until I started HRT. I could've been violent easily, perhaps even sexually so, my sex drive was too much. That coupled with delusional episodes is a dangerous mix.

Yeah without HRT I dunno what I would've done.

Mental Health is a completely different than just criminals. If this was just a rapist, I'd have no sympathy. This goes beyond what is right or wrong and goes to the fundamentals of how we treat people with psychiatric problems.

It's a biased article. Rapist Demands Sex Change, Jailed, not Housed. Demands, not seeks.

The world may think this is just a looney with mental issues, but think about this: Is she doing it herself, or is this CAMH possibly involved with her transition?

The mental health world takes these things seriously, the public not so much. Having been involved in the mental health world I know that the people there are disturbed, not insane. The CAMH surely recognizes this and is there to help.

Of course they are exaggerating: they're pushing a legal case!

Scopolamine is fine in small dosagges, of a few hundred micrograms at most. At dosage of a milligram it produces hallucinations.

It was used as a sleeping pill for a while, and when paired with sleep deprivation it produces some interesting effects in the brain.

This person is demanding. This person is being outrageous. That's what caught my attention. It's the sort of behaviour you can expect from a narcissistic or exhibitionistic type.

But when you start reading about the case, it could also be something done by someone who knows their life is at risk. With the press constantly asking questions, there are fewer chances of something weird happening.

I've taken some Datura before.. I call it the Unholy Trinity.. the Scopolamine Hyscolamine, and the other I forget the name of. Terrible things to do.


Also, perhaps Bigoted is the proper word for the article.

But thanks for clearing things up Marcella. I did some research and I do believe this case is beneficial to all trans in the provinces that don't have SRS funded. I also believe it could pave the way for more acceptance of trans in the mental health world if this person shows she's better as woman.

I haven't research this person in particular.

But, I would say let's see where the cards fall. Let's see how she lives as a woman. Let's see if she wins the case.

I know what you're thinking.. no my delusions problem is independent of my drug abuse past. Though my drug abuse past is related to my mental health problems, if that makes sense.

I mean really Marcella. You live in BC, don't they have SRS covered there? If this person wins this case, I could get SRS covered. That's a good thing.

At the same time, if this was an' ordinary criminal 'with no mental health history I wouldn't support her SRS at all due to the reasons I've stated.

I think there is a case, in short, given the details. Perhaps I'll research this person further, but not tonight, I'm tired.

Oh and before I go to bed.

I absolutely would agree this isn't the ideal case to go before the courts regarding SRS.

I would much rather prefer a more sound, so to speak, plaintiff, but at the same time it's perhaps this persons psychiatric history that makes it a case.. because what case would I have to get SRS covered? Really not much of one, except perhaps a human rights type of thing, you know.

Rapist's sex-change funding bid denied
SRS denied - sort of?
TORONTO — Paying for a sex change assessment for a convicted rapist living in a maximum-security psychiatric facility is not the responsibility of the Ministry of the Attorney General, an Ontario judge ruled Friday.

"Still Taylor, who legally changed his name from Vance Egglestone, will undergo an assessment and the review board will likely pay through funds provided by the Ministry of Health, said Taylor's lawyer Michael Davies."

"A spokesman for the attorney general said the issue in the case was "purely jurisdictional" and the court accepted the Crown's view that the review board did not have the authority to order the ministry to pay."
-
I'm not sure why the Ministry of the Attorney general would pay for this. I absolutely agree with the ruling given the context. Though, I wonder, how will this assessment unfold and what would it mean for others who need this covered? It would seem someone is paying.

Oh and it looks like SRS is being covered in Ontario as of last year. I guess I was reading old news.

I think still, this person should have SRS. If it was prison it's another matter. It doesn't matter this persons intentions, what matters is she would probably be better off that way, imo.

And I'm sorry for my flood of posts. I was angry and tired yesterday. Confused.

Its Intresting you should mention this, I have a friend, we met through a group, and a personals ad. She is currently locked up in a rural county jail; north of SF, between SF and the Capitol (salano County). we have quite an age gap, I found out she lied to me about her legal matters, and it was a domestic split up gone bad.


The Point is She is Not getting her HRT, they booked her under her old infortmation, plus she is a regestered sex offender (she never confided in me the story) I check out people I associte with. and her lock up is under various statuites, she missed her resceduled court date Not intentionaly, she lost her job, becuase shes in jail no more unemployment for her, i belive the guards may not be treating her well.


I suspect eventully she might be put in General Population, and fear for her safety. I saught help from a lobbim PAC here in SF.


I did send legal help to try to get her out or moved to a better place, where they Will give her her HRT. but I feel hurt being lied to.


rELATED TO THIS MEDIA STORY: I suppose I think this person should get it, poetic justice, but this person HARMS our community, and is a disgrace.


I

Don't you think every person incarcerated fits that same profile? I mean like that is why they are locked up isn't it?

as a note, ontario's coverage only applies to those who go through camh.

She may harm our community.. perhaps in the future, but I'd be interested how she turns out in the general public after she fully transitions and gets released, whenever that may be.

I'm not quite sure she's really had a chance to be in the trans community.

Who knows? If she ever gets out she might become a completely different person.

Yeah. That's a bummer, mainly me going to the T-Dot is a bummer. But I think they'll sign a second letter or whatever, like rubber stamp it for you with perhaps a minimal assessment.

A tiger never changes its stripes. Nothing about transition changes the basic person. In fact that is the core reason one transitions physically..because the body doesn't match the mind. General rule...don't expect a different core person.

That's probably true, but I would imagine it's harder to rape women without a penis. Perhaps molestation or physical abuse at worst.

If it spares a woman from being raped, that's fine by me.

It"s true.I've been around long enough to be able to confirm it.Unless someone has a lobotomy,or has their brain zapped with an excessive amount of electroshock therapy,the core underlying person remains intact and unchanged.Once someone is "programmed" a certain way,it never changes.A good example is repairative therapy for someone who is gay or ts.With enough "brainwashing" treatment,someone can cover it up/be in denial for a while,but it"ll come back again.I tried over the years to cover up/ignore/be in denial about myself being ts...It didn"t work.It eventually became so overwhelming,I just said fuck it!That"s it!I don"t care what happens to me after I come out!.So I did,and life is good now.The one thing that hasn"t changed though,is the basic underlying person that I"ve been all my life...

Aye, I'm sure it is true, but I do believe people are capable of changing.

Something else I'd like to raise is the possibility that persons behaviour was caused by mental factors.

We can't forget that this person has been in a psychiatric facility, not prison. That takes a certain degree of mental illness to achieve.

There are people with psychiatric conditions who can be helped and they can overcome some aspects of their disorder. I suppose my question is, is this persons behaviour a part of their personality, or does it stem from some sort of neurological disorder?

I know how drugs and therapy can change a person, and I would have no doubts people are capable of changing. It's especially true of people who have some of mental illness.

Suicide, aggression, depression, sex drive, all these things can change with drugs or therapy or both. It's not out of the realm of possibility, as aggression isn't necessarily a part of our true selves.

I'm not defending rape, I'm not saying this person is lying or telling the truth, what I'm saying is change can come if we want it. I believe in second chances, perhaps two or even three when dealing with psychiatric patients. I am familiar with what they are capable of, and when they receive proper treatment, it can be quite a shock to see how they function as people in the world.

I don't know this person, but what she's doing is inconsistent with her past behaviour. Perhaps it signals a desire for change, perhaps there is ulterior motive - but if this person still has an agenda of rape, it will be a much harder goal to pursue due to muscle loss, loss of libido, etc.

Perhaps. Perhaps. I wouldn't want this person around my children if I had any, but it doesn't mean I don't think what she is doing is beneficial to herself in society, because maybe, just maybe, it is.

That's all I'm sayin'.

Well,time will tell if this persons life of violent/self destructive behaviour is finally over with or not after fully transitioning(if that happens,otherwise???).Hopefully this will end up being a success storie after all is said and done,but, we"ll just have to wait and see what happens I guess because this person has a lot of very unusual and difficult problems to overcome.

I hope it is a success story, for the sake TS community.

There are people in this world who are 'criminally insane' or something. There are people who are disturbed, and there are criminals.

Considering this person has spent most of their life in psychiatric facilities apparently, it makes me wonder what has been disturbing her.

Then it's a process. Will she be denied SRS Or Orchiectomy based on her possibly unstable mental condition? I can't say. I would say however, a rapist is better off without a penis.

With any luck, this person will live a better life. But...the violence must go, as a non-negotiable matter.

I wonder if this person ever told doctors years ago that they were TS? Or this is just a ploy on their part?

In case you kill other transwoman a Canadian goverment is willing to pay your SRS. ( Outcome from Kavanagh vs. Canada 2001, 2003)

His thinking , may be that if he has SRS, and gets transferred to a woman's prison, she could still continue to assault other women.

Besides rape is not about sex, it is about power over the victim. Some rapist's will ejaculate before they even make entry.

Probably cannot continue assaulting anyone. Many prisons put post-op transwomen to some kind of isolation.