GenderLife Forum: The Information Exchange

this isn't really meant to be a question, more of an open-ended statement open for discussion/suggestions, so, yea...

obviously, i've tried keeping up on shaving, but the stubble felt hideous. so, i tried waxing... because i figured, women do it all the time, so, it can't be all that bad... and, it hurt like hell, lol... so i didn't try that again. then i tried tweezing, and, although it was doing the same thing as waxing, and it did take FOREVER, it was awesome! it didn't hurt near as much as waxing, it lasted for at least a couple weeks+ and the normal face cleansing deal was incredibly nice!

so, i sorta found my notch pre-electrolysis, so i was just kinda wondering if anyone else has found neater ways to remove the facial hair other than taking half of a day or anything?

I used an epilator for several years on my face. It was great. Reduced the hair, got rid of some completely but required letting the hair grow out sufficiently for the epilator to grab the little buggers. That became impractical so then I then went to laser.

Erinn, please just keep in mind that it is a very rare (or non-existent?) trans-woman who doesn't wish she started permanent facial hair removal earlier. If there is any way possible for you to being laser or electro now, I think you'd be glad you did!

I think you're very brave for having tried waxing! I think Deena's brave for using an epilator! I tried that on my legs for a while and even there ouch ouch ouch.... not to mention I swear the thing was yanking out bits of skin. If I were to do anything non-permanent, other than shaving, I'd do what you did... plucking, each and every last one, by hand.

soo... deena and cassie, any idea of the average or what you payed for laser? and how was it?

Hi there. I had laser hair removel done 2 yrs ago in 2 main areas. I bought a package of 15 treatments where 3 areas were done at 5 each area. First was under eyes to neck second was neck to under breast and the third area was spider veins on my legs. Gone but I was never very hairy. I had a Bikini wax job(ouch!) twice and laser there twice after which was much easier. The cost for the 15 package was $1600. The laser down below and around back was single visits. I am thinking of SRS again even thou almost bankrupt.
I agree hair removel is a must early on! With love Teryll

While we are on this topic, I met this idiotic trans-woman whom doesnt think electro is necessary. I admit I once was this (young & stupid) idiotic and shared this viewpoint. I don't really like her, I feel bad for her though, shes a burned out older gal a vet. whom seems like she might never fully transition.

I admit with some of the older girls, like this. scare me, and to some degree, I do ok, and don't have nearly as many issues with harassment, as some of the well nastyer ones that prehaps, should re think transition.

I've tried all from waxing to tweezing to an epilator and now am getting ready to go to my 8th laser appointment after I get done typing this. So far the only thing that has worked is the laser. When you tweeze or epilate you are just going to spur more hair growth, so you will end up with more facial hair. I paid my laser center $1442.00 for 6 treatments with a 2 year guarantee. I'm now in the 2 year free stage and most of my facial hair is gone. Another thing that I recommend is getting on HRT because that will slow down the hair growth.

so... noting the two-year guarantee you mentioned, does that mean that laser hair removal isn't permanent? or is that on the basis of, if they missed any hairs, they'd do a touch-up or something?

They will continue treatment for two years or until all hair is gone. It's suppose to be permanent but I can't answer that question yet. Give it time and I'll let you know.

I did alot of research on this, and the best understanding I found was like so:

Ultimately, permanent means you killed the hair follicle. Anything which does not do this (shaving, waxing, etc.) is short term/cosmetic.

Electrolysis does this by inserting a wire, and electrocuting the follicle. Electrolysis may not work (per follicle) if the follicle is dormant, or if the wire is not inserted properly (doesn't reach the follicle) or if the voltage is not sufficient. Surface scarring may result from over-voltage or improper insertion. But most people have a vague idea how electrolysis works, yes?

Laser still has to kill the follicle to be effective. It does this by exciting (adding energy to) the molecules in the hair. Assuming the follicle is non-dormant, the hair is attached to the follicle and energy added to the hair will be transferred to the follicle. If enough energy is applied, the follicle dies. Laser applies this energy through emission of stimulated electrons in a wide beam through the skin. These electrons will interact with pigment molecules. This is why laser hair removal works best on people with fair skin and dark hair. If you have dark skin, the laser will warm your skin, possible never reaching the hair. If you have light hair, the laser won't excite the hair enough. Beyond that, the same ideas behind the problems with electrolysis apply. If not enough energy is applied to the hair, you may damage the hair currently growing but not kill the follicle. If too much energy is applied, you can damage the skin (and possibly still not kill the follicle, depending on pigment contrasts).

Laser and electrolysis have the same limitation of only being able to kill active follicles, so a proper plan of repeated visits is appropriate. This was excellently covered at tsroadmap but I can't find the exact text, at the moment.

Finally, it's normal for a few new hairs to pop up from time to time as you grow older. This happens to genetic women as well. Depending on how many hairs and how much they bother you, you can tweeze them or hunt them down more permanently.

I think the current best advice (and I believe I'm paraphrasing info elsewhere on the forums) is to do several months of laser treatments, then switch to electrolysis once laser has killed the majority of the hairs it can. Both require a skilled practitioner. How effective laser can be is actually a question best asked of a dermatologist. (They have charts!) Electrolysis will be as good as your electrologist.

thanks nachelle! =]

The effectiveness of laser is determined, in part, by the color of the hair. The darker the hair, the more laser light it will absorb, and the opposite for light hair. Similarly, darker skin is more prone to damage by the laser. A laser operator told me the "perfect" person for laser is like an italian - dark hair/light skin.

My hair is light to white, and my complexion is fairly pale. Laser did absolutely nothing for me. After the whole sequence of laser treatments, and several into the 2-year guanantee, there was zero reduction in hair. In desperation the laser tech. turned up the power so high I got a string of burns along my jaw bone at each place she applied the laser. I got a refund for the treatments and started electrolysis...

what'd the treatments feel like? like, does it hurt? painless? etc.?

Some people say that laser feels like a rubber band being snapped on your face. For some it's not that bad and works great. Some people find electrolysis to be far more painful.

Laser, for me, hurts. A lot. Electrolysis, for me, is far less painful; I am doing both all over my face. Laser for the dark hairs, electro for the light "laser incompatible" hair. I'm visibly shaking every time I walk in for a laser treatment, whereas I have nearly fallen asleep for electro (ok, a little bit of a stretch, but not by much!)

There has been only one thing I've ever felt that has been more uncomfortable than laser on my face... genital electro. OMG.

There is something you can do for the pain: Ben/Lido/Tet#3 (20%/8%/8%) also known as BLT. It makes the area entirely numb and it really does work. You need a prescription, but it makes it completely a painless experience. Lido by itself did nothing for me.

Sadly, I'm allergic to something in the BLT - my skin turns beet red almost immediately and I broke out in incredibly itchy hives that lasted for many days every time I used it.

I used it anyway. It was worth it.

If any of you are doing electro it's totally worth trying!!

But while it's great for electro and works for laser too, sadly you're really not supposed to use much in the way of numbing creme when doing laser so you can offer feedback to the operator. If you're numb you won't know if it's turned up too high. It's supposed to average a 7 on the 1-10 pain scale. The one time I decided to use the stuff on my face I was burned because the operator had no feedback.

on the blt... that kinda got me thinking, do you think there's some sort of cream that numbs the skin that it's applied to? that'd be pretty nice to be able to massage in a simple cream on your face or wherever before going to a treatment.

That's the BLT, it's just a cream... you don't massage it in, just put a really thin layer on. Some people use Lidocane alone, but the women I know all say it doesn't really do much for them.

And you can put it on and it works 25-30 minutes ahead of time... whereas with Lido you're supposed to keep it covered with plastic two hours before hand. A little impractical for the face, imo.

so, since its a prescription, is it usually referred by the one doing the treatments? or is it something sought out from another venue?

Neither laser nor electrolysis is painless. A gel is applied before laser to help protect the skin, but it does not anesthetize the skin. Check with your laser salon before trying to apply an anesthetic under their gel. Laser will burn your skin (I had blisters once – see my post above).

For me, laser hurts all over. It is somewhat like getting snapped by a rubber band, but it’s a pretty big rubber band. Electro hurts me more than laser in some areas, and less in others. The hurty bits are the upper lip, around the mouth, in front of the ear and down the edge of the hairline on my neck. I have used 5% Lidocaine for electro, with limited success. It’s a pain having to cover it with plastic wrap to keep air out because it only works anaerobically, and stops working about 30 minutes after the plastic wrap comes off - hence the limited effectiveness for a 1 to 2 hour session.

I initially asked my doc for "Lidocaine", and he wrote a generic script for that name without specifying the concentration. Buzz. The pharmacy filled the script with a very low concentration intended to be applied to a child before getting a shot to take the needle prick away. IT DID NOT WORK FOR ELECTRO. I had to go back to my doctor and specifically request a new prescription with highest concentration he was comfortable with on my face (5%).

One last caution, when applied over a large area of skin, Lidocaine can have serious side effects. It is an anesthetic after all. If you get a dosage that’s OK for the face it may not be OK to apply over your whole chest, back or legs. It will require a prescription anyway, so check with your doctor about concentrations and the size of the area you’ll be applying it to.

In the end, I just suck it up, and think of it as re-birthing pains.

I cant say much about laser cause I have never had it done but I can say quite a bit about electro and I must say that it is berry painful in some area's and not so bad in other area's. I have never used any numbing cream's or anything like that, but about 2 mths ago I started takeing xanax and if I take an extra 1/2 one or even a extra whole one then I usually fall asleap while haveing it done, and if I am sleeping then it isent hurting. But the bottom line is in some area's no matter what you do its going to hurt(To me it feels like yellow jackets stinging me everytime she shocks a hair).....................

Erinn try this stuff you can buy it on the web from a place out of Fla.

Topicane 5.
http://www.esbalabs.com/top4.htm I hope the site owners wont be mad at me for posting the link but here it goes anyway.. its about 50 dollars for a tube of it.

was the very best thing i have found.No need to wrap the area under plastic, Better than the Emla cream of olden days that requried a script from the doc and to wrap yourself in saran wrap. (thinks back to stopping at the rest area between tulsa and Oklahoma city (1/2 way) to apply the emla to the genital region and trying to wrap it all up in saran wrap in the confines of my Geo prism, and laughs now)But was scared poopless out of fear of arrest.
But it was worth it to help endure the worst pain i ever endured.

Topicane 5 is just a clear jel you can put it on a hour before then again 30 mins before .. and i held the tube in my hand to apply to areas of my face since we would do 2 hours at a time and i wanted to keep it numb. some say one must be careful with the amount you use. I guess this is true but i didnt care lol so use your best judgment on your tollerance to it.

I did lazer back in 98 when it was first approved in the States and every one was like you fool you waisted your money. Thing was back then only the lazer light and other inferior non lazers were be passed off as ligit. The came along with the Palamar lazer also known as the Ruby lazer since it't light was red when they fired it.. It worked wonderfuly took out a big majority of the dark folicles ( you know the ugly blue under the skin that not even the closet of shaves can get. with in the first 4 treatments ... Aw but alas folicles are fickle feckers. seems it turns out as many as 5 folicles can be in one opening andonly one growing at a time thus the need to space out your treatments over a year or so. to ensure you get the dormant duds.

So then missing seveal of the lighter and dormant ones .. i tried the Alexandrite lazer ... nice pretty green light when it flashes ... it too was excellent results finished off the last of the pesky dark hairs ..

That left shock treatment for the remainders with electro... For me the region right below the nose and under the lower lip . I use to wear water proof mascara cause i knew i would tear up when they went to work on those. Then came TOpicane

And i truly wished i knew now what i didnt know then

then again its been a good 4 years since the last needle was sent to terminate the pedicle of persistance.

If you have grey or white facial hair, forget laser, electrolysis is the only way to go. Took me 3 yrs, to be done with it.

Not necessarily true. I'm doing a type of laser that combines light frequencies with radio spectrum. It is suppose to work with all hair types and hair colors. So far it seems to be doing what they say although I'm not sure it will be 100% on the lightest ones. I'll let you know after 3 more sessions. It's not cheap.

Electrolysis is a lot cheaper, and it works, for sure.

Not for me. $54/hour of electroysis vs. $200 per laser treatment.

After 100 hours of electro, only about 30% of the facial hair was gone. It took five laser treatments to get rid of over 80% of what was left, and three more (shorter, about $120 each) to get rid of basically everything that was left, but for a few hairs that turned white (about 40-50 in total).

Cost:

$5,400 for 30% of facial hair using electro (40 hours galvanic, 60 hours blend)

$1,360 for nearly 70% of facial hair.

Not to mention the time and the difference in pain. One easy to take sting with laser zaps a lot of hairs at the same time.

Well, I never used any form of pain killer for either.

I'd say electro to the eyebrows is the most painful thing I went through, followed by laser to the sides of my neck. And that followed by electro in my upper lip.

Marcella,were most of your hairs dark?

An no I didn't use any pain killer , either. Eye brows were the worst, and under my jaw on the left side. How long did you have to wait between sessions? I was doing at the start 2hrs, twice a week. Took nine hours for my first clearing of face. An yes in the end I look back and it is quite expensive. Over a 3 yr period.

Yes, but I'm far from an ideal candidate for laser: my hair is black, but my skin is copper-toned.

I did electro first because up to 2002 there were no lasers that would work for someone who had a skin darker than a Fitzpatick III.

Then in that year long-wavelength lasers finally covered the Fitzpatrick IV and V, and one of those machines got to this town in 2003. If I remember correctly, Fitzpatrick VI had to wait until 2005.

Thanks for putting that chart on .According to that chart I'm right in-between a type III and IV,so thats ok from what I"ve read.The hair part though...dark/dirty blond,it may work on me(laser),and may not.

Deena is talking about the Aurora/Elos system. I went to a doctor for a free consultation and He suggested that I wait until I'm on horomones for a few months before I attempt laser.

He has that system and He said it works well on silver/gray hair.

This week, I'm going for my first electrolysis session ($90.00 / Hour with a free consultation)

I've got 3 tattoos, so I'm no stranger to needle pain. But I've never had a tattoo on my face.

There's a topical cream that some people use to numb the pain of tattoos. I don't know how good it is (I've never used it) but, if the Electrolysis is painful, I just might pick some up.

I'll let everybody know how the session turns out.

wow! $90.00 an hour for electroylsis......my electrolysis was $65.00 an hour she was really good too. You should hunt around their are probably other electroylsist who have lower prices. I know some of my friends went to a school for electroylsis where students would work on you they had to have specific amount of training and was about $40-50 dollars for a 4 hour session. Not sure where your from but this school was in MA.

Good Luck! Happy Plucking.

@Taye: I'm in NYC. The rates seem to be around $65 per 15 minute session, and a price break for an hour ($135). This woman seems nice, and Her rates seem to be the lowest so far.

I'm lucky to not have so much body or facial hair. Still there are some "chia pet" hairs on my upper lip and around my chin. If I don't tweeze then they become pretty prominent. Especially if someone is near me.

I plan on using electro to get rid of the offending "chias" and am hoping it won't require alot of sessions

I called a local ad for laser hair removal on craigslist, asked a zillion questions, then I went to their office for a look and test zap (4 zaps actually), the laser was right at the verge my pain tolerance. It will be $175 for each visit for my face. She seems to think it will take 6-10 visits to complete. She's also not weirded out to do anything else below the nose, even suggesting the underarms and chest. 2 specific areas I wasn't ready to ask about. She seemed really cool!

Don't hold your breath on the 6-10 visits thing. Even if they claim they'll do "touch ups" for free forever, it's 1 in 1000 of us that is done in 6-10. I'm an "ideal" candidate for laser, and it definitely has worked for me, but I'm way beyond 10 and nowhere near done. I mean, I'm done enough that it's not embarrassing without makeup, but still definitely not done. YMMV. Good luck!

I have the hair that will not die. I spent a year doing laser.
1000 bucks poorer and still hairy. Electo didn't put a dent in things either but I am going to try again after I start hormones.

A product that has caught my attention is VANIQA. It is a perscription that is applied to the face. That is suppose to kill or weaken the hair by depriving it of an enzyme that makes hair grow.

Anyone try this?

Didnt read all the posts, but the "gold standard" in laser hair removal is the Light Sheer diode laser. This is only good on the darker hairs tho. You have to have electrolysis done on really fine, blond, red, or white/gray hairs, or the laser wont pick them up. I read the that a person at the "Be All" convention has a new method of electrolysis that permanently removes the hair the first time, so there is not a continuious treatment, unless there are new folicals. Im going to try her out, cause shes not far from me. She said she has already done a couple TS and they are very happy and most only will have to go back just for one more treatment if there are missed hairs. Even tho she is more expensive than most using the regular methods, it is worth it if you only have to go once or twice at the most.

You may be talking about LMX cream, $12 for a small tube. I buy it from my electrologist, and it made clearing the upper lip possible if not painless.

I started electrolysis and HRT both around Nov 08. I pay $100 for three hour long sessions. She uses a combination method which is supposedly best for beards - taking out an average of 480 hairs per session.


I have had 5 full face/neck laser treatments ($145 ea) and like someone said: the first time I was right at my pain threshold - tears were coming out while I bit my lip. I'm not sure of the type of machine - they call the treatment IPL (Intense Pulse Light). It's a medical aesthetics clinic and all pretty new equipment, run by a doctor.

I go back for laser when the electrolysis can't keep up with the growth anymore. (right now that's about 2 months)

Someone mentioned cream for desensitizing - I used Emla cream in the beginning for electrolysis. It costs around 20bux for a small tube.. but you don't need much - I just put it around my lips mainly - but that area is pretty thinned out now.

Just keep at it!

You are referring to the Electroly Institute of New England. The students vary in their skill and speed, but for someone who has no money to spend on electro, it is better than nothing.

I went there for a while and found that some of the students, the ones about to graduate, were very fast indeed!

It is $20.00 for the first hour and $10.00 each hour after that. So a two hour session would be $30.00 and a three hour session would be $40.00 That is probably the most anyone can tolerate.

It is in Tewksbury, MA

yes that is the right school I couldn't remember the name :)My electroylgist is local and $65-$70 an hour but I'm finished with my electro and haven't had any regrowth in a long time.

I went to electrology institute years ago and it was a great and inexpensive way to remove body hairs for me. I did my underarms, arms, legs, eyebrows. It was also a great way to do blend treatments on the face.

They also have an esthetics clinic as well, and they can do facials, peels, dermabrasion and other treatments at a great price.

My experience there was extremely positive and very good.

Hey- I love this girl, and this is a good vid for the "facial hair removal" topic. She also talks about stopping scalp hair loss and replacement. She recommends taking Procepia to both stop hair loss and perhaps re-grow scalp hair. But I endorse "Avodart" since it blocks over 93% of types 1 and 2 of DHT, a component of testosterone which is responsible for male pattern baldness, while the former med only blocks type 2.

(Both block the formation of DHT from Testosterone, by inhibiting the enzyme 5-alpha reductase. Unlike Propecia (Merck) which inhibits the 5 AR-2 enzyme only, Avodart (Glaxo Smith Kline) inhibits both 5AR-2 and 5AR-1 enzymes.
http://www.hairlosstalk.com/hair-loss-news/Article205.php )

I'd like to get some work on my sideburns.

I've looked up the closest electrology clinics in my area and they are in the next state. Luckily the next state isn't too far I could probably afford 2 or 3 sessions this summer so I'm thinking of going. I know the 2 or 3 may not be enough but then again I don't have very much facial hair.

It's just the sideburns and extremely few hairs around my mouth. I'm going to call around today and see how things go. We should be in New Mexico next month so that would be a good time to for me to pay a visit to the clinic(s).

So after SRS, there is no real point in taking Avodart or similar drugs since the little T factories are gone?

Depends on the person. Some, with a genetic predisposition to balding, find it useful to stop or at least slow down the loss of hair.

Remember: that the T factories are gone doesn't mean you won't have other androgens, similar (but less potent) than T in your body.

Hi, erinn - I never found any product or hair removal method that removed facial hair satisfactorily except for electrolysis.

It's really expensive, but it works.

Good luck!
Monet

Just wanted to put this out there for some girls just getting started......... I am not sure how well it works but I have heard some good things about it, anyways here it the link http://www.my-no-no.com/nono8800_about.asp

If anyone is using it or is planning to try it please post your results so others know if its effective............

Had my first laser session today on face. Hmm... initial impressions was that it hurt more than I expected but what got to me was the smell of the burning buggers. Tech said my skin/hair were ideal for laser so will see if this holds up. The clinic has some specials right now as they are obviously hurting with the economy here in the UK

It gets less painful with each session :P
...................................................................

I had ten sessions of laser and it did me wonders, now I just pluck every second day. I no longer need concealer to hide shadow. But I do plan on stating electrolysis after surgery, but I'm kinda scared of it.

Well that's good to know. I found myself tensing up all rigid like at the dentist. Tech told me to relax and after the doing relaxation/breathing thing a bit found it didn't hurt quite as much.

OK I'm a tad confused..
The laser place recommended two topical cream that can help numb the feeling slightly. Emla and Anistat (sp?) They say it does not reduce the effectiveness of the laser in any way. I can either do it myself or go in an hour early and they will do it for a nomiminal charge

I have heard some stories, like online, that it can reduce effectiveness somewhat. Does anyone know the real story? For now I'm inclined to believe the laser centre, which although expensive is ultra state of the art modern. If there is any question I'll just tough it out though.

I'd go with what the laser centre tells you. You don't mention that the centre told you the Emla must be anerobic to work. That is, you need to block out the air after you put it on, and it needs to set for about 20 minutes to be really effective.

I used it for a while prior to electro., but got tired of leaving home and driving to my appointment with a piece of plastic (Saran) wrap stretched across my face for the 20 drive to my treatment. I used to poke a hole through it for my mouth, being careful not to uncover my upper lip. Also, if the receptionist said there'd be a few minutes wait, I'd end up sittig the the lobby wrappped in plastic wrap for all to stare at. If the centre does it for you, I think you'll be guaranteed the 20-30 minute sit in the lobby while the stuff kicked in.

Once exposed to air the Emla begins losing effectiveness fairly quickly, so it would be no help after the first 30-45 minutes of a 1 or 2 hours appointment. Quickly I decided it was a PITA that totally outweighed the benefits. I hiked up my big girl panties and took it like a woman without medication.

There is a prescription topical cream that has to be made by a compounding pharmacy, that I use for my electro appointments. The pharmacy who makes it calls it "laser cream" so I suspect it would not interfere with the laser.

It is called BLT, or Benzo Lido Tetra 10% 8% 8%. You will need a prescription from your doctor for it, but it has made the clearing of my upper lip (with electro) possible, such that there is nothing there any more.

It works much better than Elma, does not need Saran Wrap to keep it active, and is very effective. I usually put some on upper lip before I go to the electrologist to get the few small weak hairs that sometimes still pop up there. I got the upper lip cleared first, that is the most painful area.

The rest of my face is getting very clear, but it is all gray and electrolysis takes such a long time!

Thanks Diana, Lauren.

I'll have them do it next time. Seems I can sit and read in a room away from reception while it kicks in so it should be fine.