GenderLife Forum: The Information Exchange

I heard that some sirgins can make a self lubricating vagina like nacheral vagina is this trow it would be wonderful if it is.

Thanks for the help in advance

what is this I don't even

Delia,

I think you are referring to the sigmoid colon vaginoplasty. It is offered by most SRS surgeons in case there is not enough external material to make a satisfactory depth neo-vagina.

According to my surgeon that is not something you really want to have done. The odor is quite bad. An a increased chance of infections.

I use a lubricant for moisturising. Which lasts most of the day. An with dilating, it pretty much stays moist.

Why would the odor be bad, it's simply mucus membrane tissue?

The only specific downside that I've heard of is that the tissue is a wee bit more delicate - other than that the results come down to the surgeon. It's the way that it's done here (by the one surgeon who does srs), the major techniques are fairly well proven, though the after care can differ.

Probably due to the type of mucous it produces; it's different to the mucous you get from the nostrils, lips or ears.
Earwax isn't very pleasant and it's just a secretion of the mucous membrane.

I am pretty sure that there is no mucus membrane tissue in the ear. Never doubt Vexing.

Note the last part. You can have a mucous membrane that doesn't secrete mucous.

You got me, I stand (or rather sit) corrected !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/index.html?curid=69447

forgive me for being naieve but given that the sigmoid colon option uses a part of the colon to create the vaginal canal.... given the colon absorbs nutrients from food into the body through the colons walls.

would that then mean youll absorb things through your vagina if you go with this option? I mean like eww if thats the case Im sure I dont need to go on as to what sort of things one could be absorbing ie during sex ect?

Or is this part of the colon not a absorbing portion?

From my research the colon option is out for me. I'd rather have 3" of depth than have to deal with the possible problems associated with this procedure.

I find that the 'lube' I use for dilating,leaves me with quite a bit of moisture, as long as I don't douche.

Well I had the standard "inversion" technique 35 years ago and I still lubricate well enough for intercourse without any artificial lube. It does seem on depend on state of mind and oestrogen levels though, and of course appropriate foreplay.

interesting.... bump... anyone know if a colon pussy absorbs stuff? Curious...

Considering sigmoid colon tissue is mucosal, and is irrigated by blood, my guess is that yes.

I'd also venture as a guess that such type of vaginoplasty may make the patient as likely to get HIV and other STDs as GGs are.

Of course, the plus is the self-lubricating aspect. No idea how controllable that is, though. It seems to vary with the individual.

I read somewhere that there is in fact an undesirable odor with a colon vagina but they said it normally goes away (or gets better) after a year or so.

To be honest, I like the thought of having a self lubricating vagina that you don't have to dilate the same as the penile inversion version. I read that the only thing you have to dilate is the opening.

But there are more complications and this is a more intrusive and dangerous surgery. The self-lubricating part can go to extreme as well with no off switch.

As far as odor goes I haven't the faintest idea I am trying to validate/invalidate that currently. As far as absorbing things yes a colon graft will absorb anything you put on it. However so will a natal vagina and even your basic skin. Anything that comes into contact with your body is absorbed to some degree. My estrogens are given transdermally with patches, they just stick to my back and absorb through my skin. Birth control also comes in this preparation. Nuvaring in particular is a great example, its a hormone doped plastic ring that is inserted vaginally and changed once a month to prevent pregnancy. That estrogen has to get in somehow =).

I actually have a degree in biology by the way. =)

Idk about just 3" of depth (that's HORRIFYING!), but I pretty much agree.

I've heard that it is possible, but not likely, that the prostate gland can produce enough fluid to lubricate. As for using colon tissue, I've heard it many times that it isn't recomended, as there are many downsides (infections, smell, fecal matter coming out of the vagina), and you are ruining what could otherwise be a healthy colon.

How would you end up with fecal matter coming out if it's not connected to the colon???

[quote=Vanna1}How would you end up with fecal matter coming out if it's not connected to the colon??? [/quote]

I think you're right Vanna. Unless a fistula develops the neovagina and the colon are wholly separated.

From the Ohio State University Medical School: http://medicalcenter.osu.edu/patientcare...ages/index.aspx

"As part of the male reproductive system, the prostate gland’s primary function is to secrete a slightly alkaline fluid that forms part of the seminal fluid, a fluid that carries sperm. During male climax (orgasm), the muscular glands of the prostate help to propel the prostate fluid, in addition to sperm that was produced in the testicles, into the urethra. The semen then leaves the body out through the tip of the penis during ejaculation."

What's not clear is how much of this fluid, coming from the transplanted urethra, would help to lubricate the neovagina. Nor is it clear what the lubrication qualities of the fluid are. Also, if the ejaculation of the fluid coincides with semen ejaculation, it might only occur at orgasm - which would do nothing for pre-penetration lubrication.

I wonder if the bulbourethral gland (or Cowper's gland) might be useful for pre-penetration lubrication. At least the timing (pre-orgasm) would be right.
From Wikipedia: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulbourethral_gland

"During sexual arousal each gland makes a clear liquid known as pre-ejaculate or "pre-cum". This fluid helps to lubricate the urethra for sperm to pass through."

Infections, smell, and fecal matter? Where'd you get this pocketful of wisdom?

The downsides are that the mucosal lining doesn't increase or decrease with arousal, so it's always pretty much on, so you may have to wear a pad or panty liner pretty much all the time. Also, you are taking out a bit of the colon, so there can be complications associated with that.

They do clean and sterilize the tissue...it's not like they just cut it out and shove it up your vag. Yuck.

There are mucosa in the middle ear, not the ear canal...ear wax is produced by ceruminous glands, which are modified sweat glands...not mucosa...take it from an RN....

I have wondered this myself. I have read it on many sites, wondered how it could be possible every time I've read it, but apparently it is a rare but possible side-effect.

The ONLY way fecal matter can get into the neovagina is if a RECTOVAGINAL FISTULA develops. This can occur if the outer surface of the neovagina comes in contact with the outer surface of the colon, and the two grow together. It can also occur in genetic women. It is a risk even in a penal inversion vaginoplasty.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectovaginal_fistula][/url]

Now, may we, please, put aside this silly thread?

Rectovaginal fistulae are not uncommon among multiparous women. Same with ureterovaginal fistulae.

Mentioning this so you don't think it's a rare thing or it's life-threatening. It can be a bother, though, because even after being "fixed" they tend to re-open.

Giving birth is a shitty business.

PS: Be grateful to your moms.

Diana, there are several members of this forum who have unfortunately been forced to have this operation and several others that are contemplating it. So maybe it would be a little more politic not to label it in such a way.
I'm not one of them, but they are members.
Thanks

I guess I'm confused. What surgery have members been "forced" to have?
Sex reassignment surgery? - I imagine that's the goal or current status of every member.
Sigmoid colon vaginoplasty? - Yes, I imagine this may have been the option of choice, or only option, for some members.
Penal inversion vaginoplasty? - Yes, I imagine this may have been the option of choice, or the only option, for other members.

What's silly in this thread is the apparent assumption that the colon part of sigmoid colon implied an automatic or higher risk of fecal matter getting into the vagina. My prior post meant to say that this is a silly and ill-informed idea. It can only happen if a fistula develops. Fistula can occur with any vaginoplasty. Fistula can occur in genetic women for various reasons.

The discussion of a self-lubricating vagina (the original subject) is a good one. The possible good and bad of using mucosa tissue is a good one. A discussion of the risk of fistula developing would be a good one. Assuming that those members who are forced to have a sigmoid colon vaginoplasty have an inherent risk of fecal matter in the neo-vagina is silly.

There a various possibilities regarding neo-vaginas that lubricate that you may be thinking of, and may want to consider and research thoroughly.

Of greatest probable interest are the current day surgeons who some people report may be using a urethral mucosa graft around the upper part of the vaginal opening to provide lubrication. That small amount of mucosa wouldn't create a totally wet vaginal cavity, but it might be of assistance during intercourse. I do not have any first hand information on this, but I have found mention of it, but the mentions do not include any surgical details, such as the mentions at the links below regarding Dr. Bowers' work. However, you may want to inquire directly with Dr. Suporn Watanyusakul and with Dr. Marci Bowers about whether or not they are doing this.

(mentions of urethral mucosa use by Dr. Bowers)

http://www.marcibowers.com/grs/patients.html

(photos of 2004 vintage Bowers vulva with mucosa)
[not liking the cosmetics otherwise though ]
[ I sure hope that has gotten better in six years ]
http://www.annelawrence.com/twr/bowers0704.html


The other option is one that you may want to tread cautiously about before considering. That option is sigmoid colon graft vaginoplasty. That form of vaginoplasty has a long list of major risks. Those risks are not usually associated with tissue inversion vaginoplasty (1) as currently performed by the most well known surgeons. With sigmoid colon surgery a portion of the upper part of the sigmoid colon (see wikipedia):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmoid_colon

is used to become the major part of the vaginal vault. I have read reports of surgeons who retrieve the colon graft with endoscopic techniques to avoid opening up the abdominal cavity. Otherwise retrieval of the graft involves a scar for the harvesting procedure in addition to the scars associated with vaginoplasty surgery. In addition the patient has to recover from have a segment of colon removed, which would probably take a couple months of clear liquid diet at minimum.

Long term, there are numerous bigger problems with sigmoid colon graft surgery. The primary drawback with such surgery is that nobody who has historically performed it has ever developed a good technique for suturing the colon graft to the vaginal opening. Consequently most people who have had that surgery complain of ring strictures at the suture line location in the vagina where the sigmoid tissue begins. The stricturing is scar tissue that shrinks and acts like a tight rubber band noose around that part of the vagina. It must be dilated constantly to prevent it from closing off the vagina. Another major problem with sigmoid-colon vaginoplasty are reports of complaints about the odor from the mucosal secretion produced by the colon graft. To the best of my knowledge, none of the currently popular and prolific vaginoplasty surgeons does the sigmoid colon procedure. The very few surgeons doing it do not appear to have reputations for good results either. Based on reports I have read, their patients tend to be people desperate for a last resort solution as a secondary procedure after catastrophic failure of a different first procedure.

As a matter of practicality, surgeons like Suporn, Meltzer, Brassard, and Bowers are creating quite functional and realistic looking vaginas/vulvas with current tissue inversion techniques. When a little extra lubrication is needed, a squirt of KY type lube inserted deep inside the vagina with the sort of plunger used for yeast infection medications can last as long as twelve hours, based on my own personal experience. It can be inserted well in advance of sexual activity and much of it will still be present in the vagina many hours later. I actually use it every couple days at a minimum anyway because it helps to provide cleansing drainage for the vagina as a matter of regular hygiene. In any event most recipients of current tissue inversion vaginoplasty surgery by the most popular surgeons report at least some self lubrication within about a year or more and increasingly so as their vagina settles in.

There are many factors other than self-lubrication to consider about having a vagina IMO. Since exogenous lubrication is easy and painless, a self-lubricating vagina seems like a non-issue to me. It seems like people ought to be more concerned with getting a realistic and pleasing looking vulva, a functional clitoris that can provide sexual pleasure, a solid and tight pelvic floor, an adequate and elastic vaginal diameter and decent depth, although diameter and elasticity seem way more important that depth beyond five to seven inches. Since it is essential to get a vaginoplasty done right the first time around, I wouldn't risk my body on anyone other than one of the surgeons with the best reputations and who is prolific enough to have a well documented track record of success and minimal complications. A tube of KY is much less hassle than the complications created by the alternatives.

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(1) I use the term "tissue inversion vaginoplasty" because the most popular current surgeons use a combination of scrotal and penile tissue to form the vagina. The techniques these surgeons are using are NOT a "simple" penile inversion. Also, based on first hand discussions with Dr. Meltzer, he has developed specialized suturing techniques to prevent the suture seams between portions of the grafts of scrotal and penile tissue from developing into the strictures that can result in vaginal stenosis. As he described it to me a large serpentine shape of suture line is used that is able to stretch and expand even if the suture line itself become stiff with scar tissue. He also explained that using full thickness tissue with subcutaneous fat and so forth intact also helps provide a material that resists stricture and poor scar formation. Given these surgical technique developments and such surgeons' ability to use full-thickness secondary grafts if and when necessary (such as for a secondary repair vaginoplasty), that leave behind only what looks like a tummy tuck scar, surgeons like Dr. Meltzer et al do not perform, and do not recommend sigmoid colon vaginoplasty.

The presence of mucosal tissue does not guarantee sufficient self-lubrication, though.

In fact, considering the small amount of mucosal walls resulting even in the most recent methods of vaginoplasty, I wouldn't expect more than a very small amount of exudate.