GenderLife Forum: The Information Exchange

Tonight at 8PM EST.

Every other CNN documentary has been made with a 'personality', Amanpour, Cooper, someone, that leads the viewer through the story. This documentary doesn't have anyone doing that.

It's almost 2 years of a crew following Susan around plus interviews with others that were involved, like her electrologist, the mayor of Largo, FL. There is also part of an interview with Donna Rose about Susan that was filmed at last years Southern Comfort Conference.

I hope many people here watch it and comment on it. I'm looking forward to reading what people think of it, good, bad or indifferent.

Brenda

Susan Stanton pissed off a lot of people a while back by making statements in a CNN interview that she thought transpeople should not be included in a federal ENDA statute. Those were statements that can never be forgiven. For that reason alone I would never watch or support that person in any way. Such statements were all the more bizarre because ENDA inclusion might have saved Stanton's old job. Apparently Stanton now has a similar job in a city down the road in Florida anyway.

I will not be watching any stupid "transition" documentary, because they are a boring waste anyway, and mostly filled with mocking and insensitive depictions of cringe worthy, wrongful stereotyping.

Now that Stanton has a new job, maybe she ought to take time off to spend some of that money on FFS, instead of being followed around by cameras, having a narcissistic wet dream.

You're right she did. That's brought out in the documentary.

The filming ended close to 18 months ago. It's been in editing and being shown at various film festivals. This is the first time being broadcast.

FYI, she has some facial surgery when she had SRS. It's in the documentary.

I don't think that the documentary has the "mocking and insensitive depictions" or "wrongful stereotyping" but that's my opinion. I would like to read what others say.

Brenda

I am quite disenchanted by what gives the impression, primarily, of being attention whoring by certain people who become the subject of these sorts of "documentaries". There is nothing unique about any of us when there are thousands of us who have been through similar life passages without warranting television cameras in our lives as we went through them.

I don't think this is about being unique but an opportunity to show the uneducated public an all to common story.

In addition, all too often these sorts of documentaries of people in their forties fail to explain why they kept secrets from their spouses for decades, and why they often demonstrate so little empathy for the rightful anger of their spouses who usually feel betrayed by such disclosures after decades of living in the dark, often with children involved, whose lives in many instances also seem taken for granted in the process. The tacit lack of empathy for the family members whose attachments are usually torn asunder by in these documentaries seems to remain a huge elephant in the room that rarely get little more than superficial attention, and often ridiculous excuses, based primarily on claims of pre-internet ignorance.

Transition? Done it.

It's boring. Next.

Claims of "educating" the "public" seems specious after nearly forty years of media attention from Christine Jorgenson, through Renee Richards, Canary Conn, and countless others throughout the decades, often portrayed in full-length television biopics, and such. The "public" has been bombarded with "information" about trans-people for decade upon decade. For the most part though, the average person has developed little more than an ability to make trans-people the punch line of jokes. It also seems like the average person has just become inured, to the subject, and seem to often just refer to even the most beautiful post-vaginoplasty women merely as "men", period. We say transsexual, they just say "men", all too often, no matter how many of these "stories" they see on television.

Thank you.

What might make an interesting documentary, would be an extended portrayal of someone analogous to Lynn Conway, who "transitioned" young, lived a long life in "stealth" but because she is "out" now for whatever reason , might show a wider audience what an assimilated and successful life like hers looks like from a more distant perspective, in retrospect.

Even a similar sort of documentary might be interesting, about someone in their thirties today, who got everything done ten or more years ago, who has been living an assimilated and together live since then, possibly in "stealth"(until the documentary of course), where the video might show a wider audience what someone's life is like long after the HRT has done its thing, the surgeries have long since been done, and the initial social upheaval has long been over.

Does Stanton apologize in the documentary for making those hugely public statements against ENDA?

Does the documentary explain that Stanton's statements against ENDA created a huge uproar among the trans-population?

Does Stanton explain why she didn't approach "transition" in a more privacy protecting way, instead of taking the big social demand action that caused the Largo city government to fire her?

Imagine if Stanton had been the sort of person who saves their money for transition, then quietly resigns their job, then spends their savings to get their surgery, and quietly looks for a new job with the new paper and physical identity afterward. IMO, that approach shows a lot more sensitivity to one's social milieu. Regardless of the law, on the job "transition" in place, implies narcissistic entitlement, IMO, about something that is extremely socially complex and regardless of "rights", places a lot of emotional stress on everybody else involved, even if they are supportive.

That would make a nice segue. Good suggestion.

We all break someone's heart. Whether a parent, a spouse, a child's. It's the price of living, no?

The only difference is that we seldom notice what we break, but always notice what other people break.

What can be done to minimize suffering?

I don't know. You can never know. Suffering can just go hidden, sometimes. Perhaps it's impossible to have any sort of relationship without any suffering.

Ah well.

As I recall Stanton chose not to sue the city that dismissed him (him at at time, her later). As such I regard Stanton as part of the problem rather than part of the solution. The problem being that the poorest transsexual people do not have robust employment rights and can't afford to enforce what they do have.


As such the best thing Stanton could do for the community would be to go away and be forgotten.

Stanton is an idiot. Star Wars is on anyways.

The only thing the lawsuit would have been good for would have been to force the city government to spend money (its own form of punishment), which can be a good thing. However, at the time, it seems likely that such a lawsuit would have failed, even though some have succeeded since then in other more favorable jurisdictions, and historically, almost all have failed throughout the United States. Florida is notoriously bad with regard to state level trans-rights as well, and such a lawsuit might have only created a negative precedent, with the possibility of damaging future lawsuits, brought during some future time when the legal and political climate might be more receptive.

Stanton is apparently a city manager again, in another nearby suburb called Lake Worth, FL, anyway.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/lake-worth-expected-to-settle-water-dispute-with-278850.html

Is that a new episode of the 'Star Wars the Clone Wars' animated series, isn't that on hiatus at the moment?

No, she doesn't. Now that she has some distance, in time, I wonder if she's grown up enough to do that?


Yes, it does.


Yes, she does.


We're supposed to save up money and tuck our proverbial tail between our legs, leave everything and everyone, hide (sometimes called 'stealth') and fear for the rest of our lives that someone will discover our 'dirty secret'? If someone wants, hide. If someone wants, don't let the bigots know that you exist. If someone wants, live in fear. Not for me!

I'm not sure about eveything in life, but some of you who possess this "holier than thou" attitude about people like Susan Stanton really need to pull your head out of the sand.

When the media, for whatever reason, deems a story like hers to be worthy of attention it brings us as a group into the lives of those who may never have considered us. Education of the public is paramount to build the kind of understanding that society needs to have if we as a group are to have any success in being assimilated into society.

Oh, wait, if that happened, what would you have to bitch about?

There are some trans-people's stories that I think would be worthy and interesting for television coverage, but Susan Stanton is not one of them. in an earlier post, I described at least one person, Lynn Conway, who I think would make a great documentary subject, because the story of her long life is quite exemplary, and includes extraordinary scientific accomplish, as well as an enviable personal life.

There are plenty of us who use our posts to be complimentary and positive most often, and when it is appropriate. However Susan Stanton has made a large group of people permanently angry at her, and that is going to show within mention of her anywhere among the knowing trans-population for a very long time.

As I also wrote in an earlier post, the "education" reasoning for presenting such documentaries just has not panned out in the light history, since the general American populace has been watching these sorts of documentaries for at least four decades, without any discernible positive impact on the average person's level of empathy or understanding.

I wonder how many people , actually watched it? I didn't. Most people who see, that is what's on, wouldn't watch it anyway. I don't see Susan Stanton that interesting to the general public.

Supposely, people say that their are a lot of shows about us out there. But I keep running in to people who do not have a clue about TS's.

The only people really interested in that type of show, are from the transgender community, an maybe some curious main stream people.

when it comes to media exposure, beggars can't be choosers. She's by no means perfect, but at the end of the day, she's one of us, and the media is all over her. Perhaps the best thing to come out of it is to show just how insane that it is that you can lose your job by coming out. There ARE people out there who will see this and be sympathetic to the injustice. To me, that's a start.

I do not know what you're basing your opinion that people's opinions are not changing over time. Everything changes, and it's up to those of us who attract media attention to use it to the advantage of all.

I for one am not begging. That is one documentary that could have gladly been left in the editing room without ever seeing the airwaves.

There are other forms of media and other people much better suited to providing a public view of trans-people. As I noted above, a good candidate would be someone like Lynn Conway, who is worth looking up for anyone who isn't familiar with her. Another person worthy of a documentary solely about her would be Andrea James, who nearly singlehandedly put FFS into the mainstream of surgical treatment for trans-women, and has done countless other remarkable things over the past fifteen years or so, like creating a DVD set to help teach trans-women how to speak properly, which is no easy task, but one that Andrea James has mastered in exemplary fashion as well. To me, she is someone whose tangible accomplishments demonstrate a concern not only for herself, but for the well-being of the entire trans-population, making her a truly interesting subject for a documentary. In addition, in this digital era, Andrea James has also demonstrated that nobody needs to "beg" for media exposure, as Andrea has shown by creating a lot of her own media, such has her recent short film "transproofed".

If you're not in the eyes of the media, your cultural significance is irrelevant. You don't exist.

Those who are out there, they do. And I bet they pay a price for that.

I'm ok as a private person. Could be conviction or cowardice, who cares. At this point all I want to be is a good citizen and a good influence on the people around me.

Which is impossible to know, of course. At best, I can think I make them a bit happier when I'm around. I may be wrong, of course.

Otherwise, since I lack the courage or the narcissism to make myself relevant as a "voice of the TS" or whatever, my public opinions are about as important as those of a gnat.

Which suits me fine. I only care about the opinions of those who know me as a person, in person.

I have not as yet watched the CNN documentary but just had a conversation with friends who were in contact with Susan before being outed by one of our very own. My friends run GenderSanity.com and were contacted by both Susan and someone within the city govt. According to Janis they had worked out a plan both with Susan and the city and were preparing to go down to Florida to participate in their education of issues they all faced with Susan's transition. Before that could happen she was outed to the press by someone within the T community.Not sure if this was brought out in the CNN piece. Susan was ill prepared for what was about to take place and from Janis' point of view the notoriety she was thrust into was not what she wanted to happen. Sorry to say I did not follow her story during the ENDA incident but considering the short duration of her being outed and her being appointed an unwilling spokesperson for the T community I tend to cut her a little slack for her lack of knowledge. We all grow a little each day after coming to terms and not many can say they are totally prepared with all the right answers or terminology. Granted my view may change after seeing the piece this evening with a group of friends at Michele and Janis place.

As to whether these type of programs, documentaries are beneficial to educate others on our struggles I can say they were very instrumental to my wife,family and friends understanding the journey I was about travel.As usual YMMV.

A close friend taped it so I will see it soon on DVD. I have a few things to say to critics but I have not yet seen the CNN segment.

The first thing I would like to say is that Susan is an educated professional who is currently a city manager in Florida. If you think that is of no significance then try going for it. Let me know if you succeed.

Second, Susan made some people mad but she didn't choose to be thrust into the public view and freely admits she was not schooled in all the sensitivities of our "community". Sheesh, if somebody stuck a national mic in front of my face I would piss off far more than she did. How many would you (generic you) upset?

Now here's a news flash for you.....I'll be glad to relay any negative comments to Susan in person. There is a condition though. Send me your criticisms along with your life history, phone number and curriculum vitae so that Susan will have some idea the substance behind the critics. I believe in a level playing field and if you (generic you) can't walk the walk then to be impolite "stuff it". I believe Susan's transition and the national focus has been a good thing even as she made a few missteps. Christine Jorgensen, Renae Richards, Lynn Conway and many others heightened public awareness in the midst of controversy and the hatred of huge numbers of very prejudiced people. Guess what, in a few short years Susan will be just as famous and respected while you (generic you) and I languish in obscurity. Strange how that works.

"Beggars can't be choosers" is not meant for literal use. It means, we don't often have a chance to be heard. Just so you know...

In other words, the price of your stealthy tranquility is that others shall represent you.

In all likelihood, Susan Stanton will languish in the same obscurity that surrounds ninety-nine percent of all people who are publicly outed and trounced through the media for a while. The list of trans-women who have had fifteen minutes of "fame" followed by decades of relative obscurity is long and often not well traveled. Even a virtual stroll through amazon.com reveals countless trans-biographies that are probably read mostly by other trans-women, but whose authors otherwise exist in relative obscurity, despite having even published the stories of portions of their lives.

Without a thread like this one, how often do even names like:

Wendy Carlos

Caroline Cossey

and hundreds more come to mind?

Some actually seem to seek out anonymity and obscurity after a period of major exposure, like Canary Conn from the 1970s, who has long since disappeared, apparently changed her name before digital court records began to make it ridiculously simple to uncover name changes, hasn't been heard from by the general trans-population in eons, and whose name pops up
mostly from time to time, for the very reason that she has been personally invisible for quite a long time.

As others have written in this thread, the price most such people have paid for public exposure has often been an expensive one too. For example, a visit to the web site of Wendy Carlos includes a visit to a page wherein Carlos expresses enormous anger about peoples' inability to let go of her medical past, and even veiled references to continued death threats over the course of thirty or so years.

Another example of how quickly exposure fades would be this site's own founder, Calpernia Addams, who was the subject of high public scrutiny a decade ago, including a cable movie, and an A&E documentary about she and her murdered boyfriend, but if you check her imdb.com listing today, she hasn't been involved in many cinema projects other than personal projects created together by she and Andrea James. Most of all, despite all that transpired a decade ago, it seems doubtful that the average person understands the significance of Addams and her murdered boyfriend with regard to the military DADT policy, and why it also should not apply.

By comparison, anonymity and privacy may be some of the best protection someone can hope for in contrast to the constant onslaught of negativity that those in the public sometimes cope with. I for one, value the benefits and limitations of private life immensely!

I found the documentary interesting yet horrifying at the same time. I apologize in advance if this sounds incoherent and rambling. Just woke up and my thoughts are still fuzzy.

Susan was not very educated on what it really means to be transsexual. I believe she would have been standing on better ground if she wasn't outed prematurely but she probably still wouldn't have 'gotten it'.

One thing that I related with but later became appalled at after hearing what she thought later was how out of place she felt at one of the conventions she went to. Where she felt disconnected with a lot of the transgender community. I feel a bit disconnected with crossdressers and transvestites but would never alienate them when it comes to human rights. When she made a comment about someone being an ugly guy in lipstick I was horrified. This showed how truly disconnected she is with just general human rights. All of us (gender benders) should be able to express ourselves the way we want/need to. She was basically saying “I am a better transgender than you are”.

And during a time when it would have really been time for her to step up she said it was okay to leave the transgender community behind but just come back for us later. WHAT?!! That was THE perfect time to urge them to take us with them. Especially the timing of the documentary being aired while ENDA is about to come out of hibernation. Again it shows how disconnected she is from the community as a whole and seems to be very self-centered.

Another thing that bothered me was when she was in front of the cameras after she was first outed. When she was asked what she wore to an event and proceeded to appear kind of giddy giving details. She should have simply said “an appropriate outfit' or something and maintain a more professional demeanor. But then I have to think this was during her plans to come out and got blind-sided by a journalist and maybe her head just exploded. I can relate to this in a way.

I am glad that CNN aired something like this and especially during a time when ENDA is about to get fired back up. At least some people will see the struggles we face and perhaps find some kind of compassion and not fight ENDA so hard. Perhaps it is a bit selfish of me in wishing that Susan was 'the one' to stand up and fight when it really counted. I wish she would have urged our inclusion at the Human Rights convention and also sued the City of Largo. Those two things would have made her a hero. But then I think that she was thrust into this and who are we to demand her to be an activist? We all should be able to live our life the way we want/need to and if being an activist is not what we want to do then we should be able to just be ourselves.

I transitioned in a public office at the University I work at but am lucky that I had full support there. I am going to be an activist here and try to help an effort to design protocols so others can have a less bumpy ride. But this is my choice and Susan should have the same choices to live her life the way she needs to.

There is no single saviour for us. Nobody is perfect. Some can live in stealth, others have no choice. Nobody knows what Susan went through, and you never will. Because you are outed so publicly, and prematurely by the media, you either hide, or throw yourself out there, and do your best. I'm happy for those of you who can live your lives privately, the way it should be. None of you has the right to criticize without having been there. I know what it's like.I have people calling me a "media whore" because I have done interviews and written articles. These are all of your own opinions, about other human beings. Try to have a little respect, as you hide behind your computers.

Episode 3 actually. Spike had a marathon.

Well said IMHO.

I saw the show and was underwhelmed. But another girl here said it helped her very redneck father come to terms with her transition, so I suppose something good came of it.